On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 11:37 AM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
> On Friday, April 19, 2013 11:05:28 AM UTC-4, Terren Suydam wrote:
>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Stathis Papaioannou 
>> <stat...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> But you claim that it is impossible to conceive of consciousness
>>>  supervening on function. A religious person would claim that it
>>> impossible to conceive of consciousness as residing anywhere other
>>> than in the spiritual realm. Both your positions seem to essentially
>>> be based on the argument from incredulity: see, this lump of coal is
>>> inert and dead, how could anything derived from it possibly have
>>> feelings?
>>>
>>>
>> Craig's "theory" is essentially equivalent with explaining consciousness
>> in terms of the religious 'soul'.
>>
>
> Nope. Soul is anthropmorphic. Sense is generic and universal. I am talking
> physics, not religion.
>
>
It's a distinction without a difference. Making it generic and universal as
opposed to anthropomorphic doesn't change anything... it is still the
uncomputable "generator" of qualia.


> He argues that "sense" is primary, and that the top-down causality of
>> intention translates to the bottom-up causality of physics,
>>
>
> Not always, not. There is bottom up, top down, inside out, outside
> in...all kinds of causality.
>
>
Makes no difference.


> and, crucially, that top-down intention is not computable, i.e. that it is
>> not possible for such top-down intention to emerge in any kind of
>> simulation, at any level. This is almost exactly the same thing as saying
>> that what animates us is our god-given soul.
>>
>
> Nope. I am saying that top-down intentions emerge from proprietary
> diffractions of the eternal experience. It's more Vedic or Taoist than
> Christian, but where I differ from Vedic or Taoist conceptions is that I do
> not see matter as illusion or Maya, but as the concrete public
> presentations which orthomodularly re-present private experiences.
>
> In what conceivable way does "proprietary diffractions of the eternal
experience" differ from something equally as ambiguous as "divine spark"?


>
>> Such stories exist in part to assuage the discomfort of uncertainty or
>> existential angst, and stop any further inquiry by defining the fundamental
>> mystery of existence in absolute terms. It is no different from saying that
>> the way things are is God's will.
>>
>
> Haha, if you see my last response to Stathis, you will see that my story
> offers no comfort nor discomfort - it is pure science which merely accounts
> for the actual universe as it is rather than what our mechanistic or
> animistic compulsions tell us it cannot be. The only advantage that my view
> offers is that it reveals consciousness as it actually is.
>
>
Pure science would give you a means to test your ideas. You are simply
philosophizing about metaphysics. Your view reveals nothing. It tells a
story. It is up to the listener to decide whether they want to place their
faith in the story you tell, because you provide no arguments that can be
tested in any empirical way.

Terren


> Craig
>
>>
>> Terren
>>
>>
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