On 9/20/2013 3:53 PM, LizR wrote:
On 21 September 2013 05:48, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:


    On 9/20/2013 9:53 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
    Note also that Truth, by definition cannot be Popperian: it is not 
falsifiable, of
    course. That's a common point with consciousness "here-and-now", which is 
not
falsifiable nor doubtable, yet true (except for the zombies of course). OK?

    I think that is too quick.  First, what Popper meant by falsifiable was 
that there
    be a test of a theory which we can conceive as having an outcome contrary 
to its
    prediction.  Of course he knew that if the theory were correct the outcome 
couldn't
    falisify it.  The point was that we could only learn something if we didn't 
already
    know the answer.

    Second, that there is a conscious thought may be indubitable WHILE the 
thought,
    "There is a conscious thought." is present.  But it doesn't follow that the 
content
    of a conscious thought is indubitable.  The content might be, "There is a 
flying
    pink elephant in my room."  which is both dubitable and almost certainly 
false.  And
    if the thought is, "I had a conscious thought." that too is dubitable.

The contents of consciousness are doubtable, of course, there might be a malicious demon or the Matrix or my addled senses or fallible memory involved. What isn't doubtable is the fact that I am conscious of them - at the time that I am conscious of them

Right. The only indubitable thought you can have is, "There's a thought". You can't doubt any other thought, like, "I see red.", because doubting is a thought and you can't think two different conscious thoughts at the same time. You can't think "I see red." AND "There is doubt this a thought." at the same time. You can have the thought, "There is doubt that this is a thought.", and your thought would be false.

- at least I can't see how that can be doubted. (This is hardly original of course - Decartes reached the same conclusion about 500 years ago).

Descarte assumed that there was an "I" having the thought and assumed it proved the existence of "I".

Brent

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