On 28 Oct 2013, at 15:12, John Mikes wrote:

What do you call "ANY PHYSICS"? is there a "God given" marvel (like any other religious miracle to believe in) callable "PHYSICS"?

I think Stathis was referring to any third person describable lawful laws, not relying to actual infinities or magic.

Craig want to add some primary sense, and make that sense contradict such deterministic law.



I consider it the explanation of certain phenomena (mostly with the help of math) at the level of knowledge AT such time of explanation. It was different in 2500 BC, in 1000 AD, last year and today. It is the explanation of figments we develop upon recognizing VIEWS of phenomena partially absorbed/understood as parts of a "PHYSICAL World". It all is adjusted to and within our limited capabilities of mind (consciousness???)

OK. But we can agree on theories locally and evolve. The discovery of the universal machine, which includes us (in some precisable sense) makes possible to study the limited, but also unlimited and capable of self-transformation, of those machines.


You cannot invoke our ignorance to criticize a theory as that would impose an ignorance-of-the-gap, and prevent progress.

Science does not exist. What exist is a scientific attitude, and this is mainly the application of the right to be wrong, and the art to accept it and move on. That's why scientists try to be precise, so that we have a chance to see how wrong they were.

Fran├žois Englert is a real scientist, in that sense, as he was sincerely disappointed by the LARC confirmation of the Standard model showing the Higgs Englert Brout boson. We learn nothing when we are shown true.

Bruno








On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 12:43 AM, Stathis Papaioannou <stath...@gmail.com > wrote:



On 28 October 2013 07:33, John Mikes <jami...@gmail.com> wrote:
Allegedly Stathis wrote:
If consciousness supervenes on neurochemistry then the brain will be different if the conscious state is different. Demonstrating that there is a change in consciousness without a change in the brain, or a change in the brain not explained by the physics, would be evidence of supernatural processes.

I would not call it 'supernatural', rather: beyond our presently known/knowable. Are you so sure that (your?) neurochemistry is "all we can have"? The demonstration you refer to would only show that our view is partial and whatever we call consciousness is something different from what's going on indeed. Explained by physics? I consider "physix" the ingenious explanation of the figments we perceive - at the level of such explanatory thinking. It changed from time-period to time-period and is likely to change further in the future.
Agnostically yours
John Mikes

It would be supernatural not if it were inconsistent with known physics, but with any physics.


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