On Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:56:44 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 29 Oct 2013, at 14:23, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > > > > > On Tuesday, October 29, 2013 3:05:52 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > > On 28 Oct 2013, at 19:47, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> On Monday, October 28, 2013 1:38:58 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> > >> On 28 Oct 2013, at 15:12, John Mikes wrote: > >> > >>> What do you call "ANY PHYSICS"? is there a "God given" marvel > >>> (like any other religious miracle to believe in) callable "PHYSICS"? > >> > >> I think Stathis was referring to any third person describable > >> lawful laws, not relying to actual infinities or magic. > >> > >> Craig want to add some primary sense, and make that sense > >> contradict such deterministic law. > >> > >> That would be silly. Nothing that I have ever proposed contradicts > >> a single scientific observation, by definition. I am not adding > >> anything, I am absorbing all disembodied pseudo-substances into > >> sense: "Laws", "Forces", "Fields", "Wavefunctions", > >> "Probability"...all of that invisible voodoo is gone. It's all > >> primordial pansensitivity experiencing its own alienation and re- > >> constellation. > > > > Looks like a sense-of-the-gap to me. > > > > Not at all. What we have now is a force-of-the-gap, field-of-the- > > gap, etc. > > No. This has been solved. Indeed, so precisely that it is only a > question of solving diophantine equation to compare the physics of > machine and the physics we infer from observation. Primary matter is a > matter-of-the-gap, OK. But not the matter as described by the > introspective machine. >
Not the matter (because that actually is concretely sensed), but forces, fields, and laws because they are magical ideas that appear out of nowhere and do things without any tangible presence. It's just haunted space. That the haunting of the space can be precisely mapped and deconstructed mathematically does not give it the power to change matter. What has been overlooked is the possibility that matter is an appearance within experience, of experience which has alienated itself - followed different histories in parallel or phase-shift. > > > > > I am merging all of the empty bubbles and finding that none could be > > anything more or less than sense. > > This cannot satisfy me, as I am looking to some understanding of what > is sense, where does it come from, why does it provide non justifiable > feature like consciousness, etc. > There is no understanding needed to what sense is - it is the most self-evident phenomena possible as it is self-evidence period, full stop. All that is, is because it has been made evident within some sensory context. There is nothing there to be evident except for this relativity of presence shared with the contents and contexts of eternity. Justification is nothing but a sense of comparison among subordinate sense experience. You are looking for something that you have already found but won't accept it. I am showing you *all of this* is sense, and you are responding that you are looking for something *else*. If you accept the premise however (yes, doctor of primordial identity pansensitivity) then you must accept that it is ontologically impossible that there could be anything *else*, by definition. Unlike Comp, it does not assert the supremacy of arithmetic truth, but then add in dreaming numbers, resurrection by mechanical incantation, duplicated persons, machines emulating other machines which think they aren't machines (even though Comp prohibits any possibility of what else there would be besides machines.). Comp may mistake self referential logic for a self, but I don't. I have no problem a sentence that we read as "this sentence is lying" as a trivial syntactic contradiction rather than a profound puzzle that reveals the ontology of consciousness. > To start from sense is like to start from God. This answers nothing > (even if there is a God). > It is to start before God, and before arithmetic, truth, and even before 'starting'. Your are still vastly underestimating the hubris that I intend. Sense = the Absolute, means that there has never been anything else, and there can never be anything else. > > On the contrary, comp explains 100% of matter, and 99,9% of sense, but > explain 100% of why it remains 0.01% of a necessary non comprehensible > aspect of the inside first person view. > The entire universe fits in the 0,1% of sense that comp fails to find. Everything else is a reflection of that sense. Comp is inside out. > > Anyway, the solution is testable, so you should be happy that we might > refute comp. > Comp may be testable (using consciousness) but consciousness is not testable using comp. Craig > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> I consider it the explanation of certain phenomena (mostly with > >>> the help of math) at the level of knowledge AT such time of > >>> explanation. It was different in 2500 BC, in 1000 AD, last year > >>> and today. It is the explanation of figments we develop upon > >>> recognizing VIEWS of phenomena partially absorbed/understood as > >>> parts of a "PHYSICAL World". > >>> It all is adjusted to and within our limited capabilities of mind > >>> (consciousness???) > >> > >> OK. But we can agree on theories locally and evolve. The discovery > >> of the universal machine, which includes us (in some precisable > >> sense) makes possible to study the limited, but also unlimited and > >> capable of self-transformation, of those machines. > >> > >> Just because they are unlimited doesn't make them capable of self- > >> transformation. Arithmetic truths may be mind-bogglingly complex, > >> but they are quite generic and aesthetically predictable. True > >> beauty, whether in the form of a supermodel or an art masterpiece, > >> introduces an experience which is literally unimaginable before it > >> appears. It is not self-transformation, but revelation of simple, > >> iconic presentations which relate to nothing but their own brand of > >> pleasure, and to the history of all beauty and pleasure. It has not > >> exterior truth which it mediates for, as we have proved with > >> commercials. Any celebrity can be signify a product that has > >> nothing to do with their lives. Beauty can be a code or tag for > >> whatever we attach to it - it has no fixed mathematical affiliation. > > > > My feeling is that you have a limited view on mathematics. > > > > True, but that may be what is required. If you want to understand > > what it all is, and don't have the math to fall back on, then you > > have to think more deeply about the question. We need a limited view > > of mathematics. > > Hmm.... That looks like obscurantism to me. > > > > > Computers are much better at it. > > Today's computer have no view of mathematics at all. They have no > other view than the view of the universal person. If you want, they > are enlighten, and the hard thing is to incarnate them in the > terrestrial plane, in some relevant ways relatively to us. > > > > > > You miss that quality and first person notion can be handled, > > accepting some definition. > > > > No, I think that you miss that they cannot be handled by any > > definition, > > On the contrary, I give a proof that they have no definition. Many > features of the introspective machines lacks definition, to begin by > truth. > > > > > because all definitions are already first person qualities. They are > > perspectives on perspectives - sense making of sense making. > > > > You seem to believe that there can be no third person account of an > > axiomatic of the first person notion. > > > > Right. Why would third person need an account of anything when first > > person is already the only accountant? > > Exactly. But again, that is a reason to appreciate the subtlety of > the Church-Post-Turing notion of machine. > > > > > > > That's a category error. Math must be 3p, but can talk about 1p, and > > even seems to imply it, as the arithmetical 1p hypostases should > > illustrate. > > > > I think that's an illusion. > > Well, just to the work. > > > > > Math's version of 1p is an empty light socket with a bulb drawn > > around it. > > If you say so ... (that's not an argument). > > > > All references to 1p come from our minds > > Anthropocentrism. (and no argument. You just restate your opinion) > > > > - our generosity in sharing our awareness in whatever we look at > > that seems to have a face, or does something that seems to require > > knowing. In the proper light, all of these empty promises and paste > > jewels will be exposed as the pathetic fallacy...a trompe 'loeil > > that is as spectacular as any could ever be. > > May be, but in absence of argument, I will continue to work on the > simpler hypothesis. At least that might lead to some "real" argument, > not based on a personal feeling, against comp. But up to now, thanks > to QM, comp is confirmed by the physical reality available to us. > > Bruno > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
