On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 7:51 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edgaro...@att.net> wrote:

> Jason, > > To address one of your points wavefunctions never collapse they just > interact via the process of decoherence to produce discrete actual > (measurable/observable) dimensional relationships between particles. > > Decoherence is a well verified mathematical theory with predictable > results, and the above is the reasonable interpretation of what it actually > does. In spite of what some believe, decoherence conclusively falsifies the > very notion of collapse. > > Thanks Edgar, If the wave-function does not collapse then the superposition of states is preserved. This was the essence of Hugh Everett's theory (which is known today as many-worlds). Jason > > > On Friday, December 27, 2013 1:14:01 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 12:18 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote: >> >> Jason, >> >> Neither of the first 2 points you make here seem correct to me but you >> don't express them clearly enough for me to know why you are saying what >> you are saying. >> >> As to the first point, the present moment is self-evident direct >> experience >> >> >> Do you think the present moment is the only point in time to exist, to >> the exclusion of all others? If so, please explain how this is >> self-evident. >> >> >> whereas wave function collapse is an outlandish interpretation of quantum >> equations which has no basis at all in direct experience, >> >> >> I agree with this. But then why isn't it also "outlandish" to presume >> past moment's in time must cease to exist, just because we are not in them? >> It seems to be a needless addition to the theory (just like wave function >> collapse), to keep our concept of what is real, limited to that which we >> are aware of from our particular vantage point. >> >> To be clear, the collapse theories say that even though the equations of >> quantum mechanics predict multiple outcomes for measurements, they suppose >> that those other possibilities simply disappear, because we (from our >> vantage point in one branch) did not experience those other vantage points >> in other branches. Hence they presume only one is reified, to the exclusion >> of all others. This "us-centered" thinking is how I see presentism. It says >> that only one point in time is reified, to the exclusion of all others. >> >> >> or in quantum theory = the actual equations. >> >> >> If you believe quantum theory is based entirely on the actual equations >> (e.g. the Schrodinger equation), this leads naturally to many-worlds. It is >> only by added additional postulates (such as collapse) that you can hope to >> restrict quantum mechanics to a single world. All attempts at this which I >> have seen seem ad hoc and completely unnecessary. >> >> >> Anyway the theory of decoherence put wave function collapse to rest long >> ago >> >> >> >> You need to clarify here. Decoherence is used by some to say when >> collapse happens (without needing observers). Hence, collapse is still >> treated as a real phenomenon (just one not triggered by observation). >> Others, use decoherence in the context of many-worlds to justify the >> "appearance of collapse", while maintaining that the wave function never >> collapses. >> >> If you are saying collapse doesn't happen or is not real, then that is de >> facto "many-worlds". >> >> >> >> but the self-evident experience >> >> >> As I said a few posts ago, you cannot use your experience to rule out >> that more than one present exists, and therefore you cannot use your >> experience to rule out that all points in time exist. >> >> >> of the present moment cannot be falsified by any theory. >> >> >> The exclusive existence of a unique present contradicts special >> relativity. >> ... > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.