On 28 Dec 2013, at 01:51, Edgar L. Owen wrote:
Jason,
To address one of your points wavefunctions never collapse they just
interact via the process of decoherence to produce discrete actual
(measurable/observable) dimensional relationships between particles.
Decoherence is a well verified mathematical theory with predictable
results, and the above is the reasonable interpretation of what it
actually does. In spite of what some believe, decoherence
conclusively falsifies the very notion of collapse.
OK, but decoherence solve the problem in the Many-World picture.
Decoherence does not justify an unique physical universe. It explains
only why the universe seems unique and quasi-classical, and seems to
pick the position observable as important for thought process and
measurement.
Bruno
Edgar
On Friday, December 27, 2013 1:14:01 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote:
On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 12:18 PM, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]>
wrote:
Jason,
Neither of the first 2 points you make here seem correct to me but
you don't express them clearly enough for me to know why you are
saying what you are saying.
As to the first point, the present moment is self-evident direct
experience
Do you think the present moment is the only point in time to exist,
to the exclusion of all others? If so, please explain how this is
self-evident.
whereas wave function collapse is an outlandish interpretation of
quantum equations which has no basis at all in direct experience,
I agree with this. But then why isn't it also "outlandish" to
presume past moment's in time must cease to exist, just because we
are not in them? It seems to be a needless addition to the theory
(just like wave function collapse), to keep our concept of what is
real, limited to that which we are aware of from our particular
vantage point.
To be clear, the collapse theories say that even though the
equations of quantum mechanics predict multiple outcomes for
measurements, they suppose that those other possibilities simply
disappear, because we (from our vantage point in one branch) did not
experience those other vantage points in other branches. Hence they
presume only one is reified, to the exclusion of all others. This
"us-centered" thinking is how I see presentism. It says that only
one point in time is reified, to the exclusion of all others.
or in quantum theory = the actual equations.
If you believe quantum theory is based entirely on the actual
equations (e.g. the Schrodinger equation), this leads naturally to
many-worlds. It is only by added additional postulates (such as
collapse) that you can hope to restrict quantum mechanics to a
single world. All attempts at this which I have seen seem ad hoc and
completely unnecessary.
Anyway the theory of decoherence put wave function collapse to rest
long ago
You need to clarify here. Decoherence is used by some to say when
collapse happens (without needing observers). Hence, collapse is
still treated as a real phenomenon (just one not triggered by
observation). Others, use decoherence in the context of many-worlds
to justify the "appearance of collapse", while maintaining that the
wave function never collapses.
If you are saying collapse doesn't happen or is not real, then that
is de facto "many-worlds".
but the self-evident experience
As I said a few posts ago, you cannot use your experience to rule
out that more than one present exists, and therefore you cannot use
your experience to rule out that all points in time exist.
of the present moment cannot be falsified by any theory.
The exclusive existence of a unique present contradicts special
relativity.
...
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