On Dec 28, 2013, at 12:30 PM, "Edgar L. Owen" <edgaro...@att.net> wrote:

Bruno,

Not at all. Decoherence falsifies collapse. Decoherence falsifies many worlds. With decoherence everything is a wavefunction and those wave functions just keep on going and interacting in this single world.

Edgar


If decoherence falsified MW why do so many physicists still believe in it? What do you see in decoherence that everyone else has missed?

Please answer this question for me: Do you have any doubt about your own theories?

Jason



On Saturday, December 28, 2013 5:48:12 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 28 Dec 2013, at 01:51, Edgar L. Owen wrote:

Jason,

To address one of your points wavefunctions never collapse they just interact via the process of decoherence to produce discrete actual (measurable/observable) dimensional relationships between particles.

Decoherence is a well verified mathematical theory with predictable results, and the above is the reasonable interpretation of what it actually does. In spite of what some believe, decoherence conclusively falsifies the very notion of collapse.

OK, but decoherence solve the problem in the Many-World picture. Decoherence does not justify an unique physical universe. It explains only why the universe seems unique and quasi-classical, and seems to pick the position observable as important for thought process and measurement.

Bruno



Edgar



On Friday, December 27, 2013 1:14:01 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote:



On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 12:18 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote:
Jason,

Neither of the first 2 points you make here seem correct to me but you don't express them clearly enough for me to know why you are saying what you are saying.

As to the first point, the present moment is self-evident direct experience

Do you think the present moment is the only point in time to exist, to the exclusion of all others? If so, please explain how this is self-evident.

whereas wave function collapse is an outlandish interpretation of quantum equations which has no basis at all in direct experience,

I agree with this. But then why isn't it also "outlandish" to presume past moment's in time must cease to exist, just because we are not in them? It seems to be a needless addition to the theory (just like wave function collapse), to keep our concept of what is real, limited to that which we are aware of from our particular vantage point.

To be clear, the collapse theories say that even though the equations of quantum mechanics predict multiple outcomes for measurements, they suppose that those other possibilities simply disappear, because we (from our vantage point in one branch) did not experience those other vantage points in other branches. Hence they presume only one is reified, to the exclusion of all others. This "us-centered" thinking is how I see presentism. It says that only one point in time is reified, to the exclusion of all others.

or in quantum theory = the actual equations.

If you believe quantum theory is based entirely on the actual equations (e.g. the Schrodinger equation), this leads naturally to many-worlds. It is only by added additional postulates (such as collapse) that you can hope to restrict quantum mechanics to a single world. All attempts at this which I have seen seem ad hoc and completely unnecessary.

Anyway the theory of decoherence put wave function
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