Dear Bruno,

On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 7:09 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

>
> On 28 Dec 2013, at 04:56, Jason Resch wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:42 PM, Stephen Paul King <
> stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jason,
>>
>> "Any program, and whether or not it ever terminates can be translated to
>> a statement concerning numbers in arithmetic. Thus mathematical truth
>> captures the facts concerning whether or not any program executes forever,
>> and what all of its intermediate states are.
>> "
>>
>> this also captures every instance of random numbers as well.
>>
>
> It is not clear to me what "random" means in arithmetical truth.
>
> Randomness can appear from the perspectives of observers, but I don't see
> how it can arise in arithmetic.
>
>
> ?
>
> It appears in all numbers written in any base. Most numbers are already
> random (even incompressible).
> I guess you know that. In the phi_i(j) in the UD, randomness can appear in
> the many j used as input, as we usually dovetail on the function of one
> variable. (but such input can easily be internalized in 0-variable
> programs).
>

OK, I must agree, but can you see how this removes our ability to use the
natural ordering of the integers as an explanation of the appearance of
time? Since there are multiple and equivalent (as to their properties)
sequences of integers that have very different orders relative to each
other, if we use these ordering as our "time" we would have a different
dimension of time for every one!



>
> For a long time I got opponent saying that we cannot generate
> computationally a random number, and that is right, if we want generate
> only that numbers. but a simple counting algorithm generating all numbers,
> 0, 1, 2, .... 6999500235148668, ... generates all random finite
> incompressible strings, and even all the infinite one (for the 1p view,
> notably).
>
> In that (trivial) sense, arithmetic contains a lot of 3p randomness, even
> perhaps too much. Then 1p randomeness appears too, by the 1p indeterminacy
> (and that one is in the eyes of the machine).
>
> Chaitin's results can also explain why we cannot filter out that 3p
> randomness from arithmetic.
>


Have you had any more thoughts on the "book keeping" problem we have
discussed in the past?



>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>> What method is deployed to ensure that a program is not just a "regular"
>> random number and not some random number prefixed on a "real" halting
>> program?
>>
>
> It don't see how it makes a difference.
>
>
>>
>> Truth is not a measure zero set, or is it?
>>
>
> I don't understand this question..  Could you clarify?
>
> Jason
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:09 PM, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 9:31 PM, Stephen Paul King <
>>> stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Jason,
>>>>
>>>>   Could you discuss the "trace of the UD" that LizR mentioned? How is
>>>> it computed? Could you write an explicit example? I have never been able to
>>>> grok it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Bruno has written an actual UD in the LISP programming language.  I will
>>> write a simple one in pseudo-code below:
>>>
>>> List listOfPrograms = new List[]; # Empty list
>>> int i = 0;
>>> while (true)
>>> {
>>>    # Create a program corresponding to the binary expansion of the
>>> integer i
>>>    Program P = createProgramFromInteger(i);
>>>
>>>    # Add the program to a list of programs we have generated so far
>>>    listOfPrograms.add(P);
>>>
>>>    # For each program we have generated that has not halted, execute one
>>> instruction of it
>>>    for each (Program p in listOfPrograms)
>>>    {
>>>      if (p.hasHalted() == false)
>>>      {
>>>         executeOneInstruction(p);
>>>      }
>>>    }
>>>
>>>    # Finally, increment i so a new program is generated the next time
>>> through
>>>    i = i + 1;
>>> }
>>>
>>>
>>> Any program, and whether or not it ever terminates can be translated to
>>> a statement concerning numbers in arithmetic. Thus mathematical truth
>>> captures the facts concerning whether or not any program executes forever,
>>> and what all of its intermediate states are. If these statements are true
>>> independently of you and me, then the executions of these programs are
>>> embedded in arithmetical truth and have a platonic existence.  The first,
>>> second, 10th, 1,000,000th, and 10^100th, and 10^100^100th state of the UD's
>>> execution are mathematical facts which have definite values, and all the
>>> conscious beings that are instantiated and evolve and write books on
>>> consciousness, and talk about the UD on their Internet, etc. as part of the
>>> execution of the UD are there, in the math.
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Kindest Regards,
>>
>> Stephen Paul King
>>
>> Senior Researcher
>>
>> Mobile: (864) 567-3099
>>
>> stephe...@provensecure.com
>>
>>  http://www.provensecure.us/
>>
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> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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-- 

Kindest Regards,

Stephen Paul King

Senior Researcher

Mobile: (864) 567-3099

stephe...@provensecure.com

 http://www.provensecure.us/


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