I mean the computer in a cruise missile is a computation , the sensors and the actuators. I also don`t want to steal your precious "computation" concept. I just resigned. I call it now "self sustained processes" that compute. Although for me that expression is a redundancy.
I would have you a little more in my side if I say that the physical reality is a computation by God in order to create the order of reality, but for you that is not enough. For you, God undistinguisable from the computation, and the computation produces whathever disorder possible, order among them. That is nonsense for me. That is a sacrifice of nonsense to pay in the altar of Simplicity, that you happily pay in the hope to find something that will eliminate that nonsense. Don´t count on me for that. Don't waste your time trying to convert me to your computationalist faith. I say that yours is a faith and not an hypothesis because you extract vital conclusions from it. For example "Marihuana is good because it permits the access to alternative computations-dreams". Itsn't so? (It is not a rethorical question. it is not an "accusation". I just ask) 2014/1/24, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>: > > On 24 Jan 2014, at 00:58, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > >> 2014/1/22, Stephen Paul King <[email protected]>: >>> Dear Alberto, >>> >>> I disagree, but like the direction of your thinking. >>> >>> On Monday, January 20, 2014 3:17:16 PM UTC-5, Alberto G.Corona wrote: >>>> >>>> Computation is understood as whatever made by a digital computer or >>>> something that can be emulated (or aproximated) by a digital >>>> computer. >>>> So everything is a computation. That is a useless definition. >>>> because >>>> it embrace everything. >>>> >>> >>> Not everything. It would embrace the category of emulations, >>> simulations, >>> representations and all other information related aspects of the >>> universe. >>> It is not necessary for this Category to be identified with the >>> physical >>> world. Yes, it must be related to the physical but that relation >>> can be a >>> morphism to another Category: that of physical objects, forces, >>> thermodynamics, energy, etc. Two Categories, side by side, separate >>> yet >>> related. If we remove the possibility of distinguishing the members >>> of the >>> Categories they collapse into singletons and then, and only then, are >>> Identical. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Everything is legoland because everything can be emulated using lego >>>> pieces? No, my dear legologist. >>>> >>>> What about this definition? Computation is whatever that reduces >>>> entropy. In information terms, in the human context, computation is >>>> whatever that reduces uncertainty producing useful information and >>>> thus, in the environment of human society, a computer program is >>>> used >>>> ultimately to get that information and reduce entropy, that is to >>>> increase order in society, or at least for the human that uses it. >>>> >>> >>> Not correct. Computations that generate output that is identical to >>> their >>> input exist. I would say that computations are *any* form of >>> transformation >>> >> >> Yes. there are computations that produce that. and computations that >> produce disorder in the real world. For example, a cruise missile. > > A cruise missile is not a computation. > Provably so when assuming computationalism. It is not a computation, > nor the result of a computation (but it is related to a measure on all > computations). > > I think it is preferable to use the standard definitions for the no > controversial notions. the notion of computation is based on the > mathematical discovery of the universal systems, languages and > (mathematical and digital) machines. Computation theory and > computability theory are standard branches of computer science. > > Well, to be sure, the notion of computation is more complex than the > notion of computability, but it is easy to get in all case precise > definitions which are coherent with what we know about universal > systems. > > Bruno > >> >> But... as long as the are though or they are build or they are used, >> the goal is to create some kind of order by the mind that defines, >> uses or build it. >> >> These computations at last produce certain desired order. Either are >> made for you to convince me about how meaningles is my definition or >> to kill terrorists in an enemy country etc. Ultimately the desired >> outcome is reduction of uncertainty and entropy around the designer. >> >> . It is a metaphisical position if you like. If you like, I can call >> "essence of computation" instead of "computation" as such. or >> alternatively "the self sustained process for which the computation is >> _ever_ made for" >> >> >> >>> of information, including transformations that are automorphisms. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> A simulation is an special case of the latter. >>>> >>>> So there are things that are computations: what the living beings do >>>> at the chemical, physiological or nervous levels (and rational, >>>> social >>>> and technological level in case of humans) . But there are things >>>> that >>>> are not computations: almost everything else. >>>> >>> >>> We are using a very narrow definition of computations and thus miss >>> the >>> computations that physical processes outside of our CPUs and GPUs are >>> performing. If the functions of an Isolated physical system are >>> such that >>> the transformations they induce in/on their cover space (?) of >>> representations are a simulation of the physical system, what >>> obtains? A >>> one to one map of the system that co-evolves with it. When we >>> consider >>> physical systems interacting with each other, could they >>> additionally have >>> partial emulations of each other within their "self-simulations"? >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Alberto. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>> send an >>> email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything- >>> [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> >> -- >> Alberto. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> send an email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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