Hi Jesse, Well, we disagree here but thinking we know for sure the details of what Einstein believed is probably a lost cause - for me at least, but you of course can always call him up and ask him, since in your view he still actually exists as a block time time line!
Let me know when you get an answer and I'll be a believer in block time too! :-) Best, Edgar On Tuesday, February 4, 2014 10:14:43 AM UTC-5, jessem wrote: > > > > On Tue, Feb 4, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]<javascript:> > > wrote: > >> Jesse, >> >> I agree that the evidence is that Einstein very probably believed in a >> non personal God of the universe. But there are those who try to prove he >> believed in a personal Biblical God and they do come up with some quotes >> they claim support their belief. >> > > But you said *you* thought his quotes on God were inconsistent, not just > that some other people might incorrectly infer belief in a Biblical God > from his quotes. Can you think of any comments of his that *you* think are > inconsistent with a Spinoza-esque pantheist God? > > > >> >> The quote you provide re an objective now are simply referencing the >> non-simultaneity cases of clock time which are well known but as I've >> pointed out ad nauseum do NOT falsify an actual present moment. That is >> clearly shown by the twins having NON-simultaneous clock times in the exact >> SAME present moment. >> > > He referred to "sections" of the four-dimensional structure and the idea > that none of these "sections" can "represent 'now' objectively", so clearly > he wasn't just talking about individual readings on local clocks, but > rather the spacelike simultaneity surfaces (surfaces of constant coordinate > time) used by inertial frames. Though as I've mentioned before, inertial > frames can be defined in terms of a hypothetical *network* of clocks > filling all of space, which have been "synchronized" in their rest frame, > so in this sense simultaneity surfaces are based on clock readings. > > >> >> And as this quote points out "the concepts of happening and becoming are >> indeed NOT completely suspended, just more complicated". >> > > Yes, just like plenty of eternalists would say. > > >> And he goes on to note that there is an "EVOLUTION of a three >> dimensional existence in time" which clearly indicates what he really >> believed in was a 4-dimensional universe in which things EVOLVE, happen and >> change. >> > > No, he said that we "should think of physical reality as a > four-dimensional existence, INSTEAD OF, AS HITHERTO, the evolution of a > three dimensional existence." In other words, he was contrasting the older > view of physical reality as "the evolution of a three dimensional > existence" with the newer view of "a four-dimensional existence", and > saying the latter is how we "should" think of things. > > Jesse > > That is NOT block time. It's a 4-dimensional universe in which things >> change and happen and become, though in a more complicated way than the old >> Newtonian way. >> >> So I would argue against your interpretation based on this quote... >> >> And of course using the present "in the ordinary everyday way" of direct >> observation is itself strong evidence that a present moment does actually >> exist and block time doesn't, and that everybody that uses it that way >> implicitly and most explicitly believe that.... >> >> >> Edgar >> >> >> >> On Monday, February 3, 2014 10:34:46 PM UTC-5, jessem wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 8:28 PM, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Jesse, >>>> >>>> That's possible but it's only one quote and considering the >>>> circumstances it could have just been an attempt to provide comfort to the >>>> grieving family. Also Einstein is known to have spoken metaphorically at >>>> times and even to seemingly contradict himself on occasion (eg. on >>>> religious belief), so I think one would need to have more than just that >>>> one quote to make a convincing case. >>>> >>> >>> All of his statements on religion I've seen seem completely consistent >>> with a Spinoza-esque pantheism, where do you think he contradicted himself >>> on religion? As for block time, that wasn't his only comment in support of >>> the idea, for example at http://everythingforever.com/einstein.htm we >>> find the following even more explicit endorsement of the block time view: >>> >>> 'Since there exists in this four dimensional structure [space-time] no >>> longer any sections which represent "now" objectively, the concepts of >>> happening and becoming are indeed not completely suspended, but yet >>> complicated. It appears therefore more natural to think of physical reality >>> as a four dimensional existence, instead of, as hitherto, the evolution of >>> a three dimensional existence.' >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> On the other hand I suspect one can find very many Einstein quotes in >>>> which he mentions the PRESENT which would stand in direct contradiction to >>>> a belief in a block universe. >>>> >>>> >>> Did he use it in the context of talking about the nature of time in >>> physics or philosophy, or was he just using it in the ordinary everyday >>> way, like talking about the "present political situation" or something? If >>> the latter, I think eternalists talk that way all the time, simultaneity >>> issues make no practical difference when you're just talking about events >>> confined to the Earth. And aside from simultaneity issues, talking about >>> the "present" doesn't preclude the possibility that other times are equally >>> real, it's just an indexical term like "here". >>> >>> Jesse >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Monday, February 3, 2014 7:37:44 PM UTC-5, jessem wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 6:44 PM, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Liz, >>>>>> >>>>>> You keep repeating your UNSUBSTANTIATED claim that both Newton and >>>>>> Einstein believed in block time. >>>>>> >>>>>> I've repeatedly asked you to substantiate this claim with some actual >>>>>> quotes from them but you have been unable to do so. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please provide quotes substantiating this or withdraw the claim. >>>>>> That's only fair... >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In Einstein's case this does definitely seem to be his own belief, for >>>>> example when his lifelong friend Michael Besso died in 1955, he sent his >>>>> family a letter in which he wrote: >>>>> >>>>> "Now he has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. >>>>> That means nothing. People like us, who believe in physics, know that the >>>>> distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly >>>>> persistent illusion." >>>>> >>>>> I think the serious context of this letter likely precludes the >>>>> possibility that he was joking, or that he was just speaking in an >>>>> offhand >>>>> way about how relativity models the world as opposed to expressing a >>>>> belief >>>>> about the way the world really is. >>>>> >>>>> Jesse >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] <javascript:>. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]<javascript:> >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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