________________________________
 From: "spudboy...@aol.com" <spudboy...@aol.com>
 


Chris, not to be disagreeable, but the tech either works or it does 
not, is either clean or its not, is abundant or it isn't, is affordable 
or it ain't. We need it all to work in a newtonian sense, or its 
useless. Fuel efficiency has been promoted by greens, as an ideological 
thing. It has its thermodynamic limit. It is like the hypercar of 25 
years ago, promoted by Amory Lovin. Everything that wasn't kevlar, was 
aluminium. Everything that was not magnesium, was fibreglass, but was 
light. So light, that a passing 18 wheeler, driving in the next lane, 
would blow it off the road. Unsafe at any speed. Good on fuel though. 
No talking can replace physics.

You seem confused - In reality macroscopic systems are not an either or 
proposition. A system does not "either work; or not work" This is not how 
reality operates. Things work poorly or better perhaps. One system may be more 
efficient than another or be able to achieve a better outcome than another -- 
it will be marginally preferable. If you do not understand how marginal 
performance is the key to understanding complex systems then there is nothing I 
can do to help you out here.

It is not black/white world... more like many shades of grey. Fuel efficiency 
has been promoted by a lot of people and organizations; and you neatly 
obfuscate by side stepping the point -- not talking about automobile fuel 
efficiency, but the efficiency with which we heat, cool and light our buildings 
(both residential, industrial and commercial) -- This is a case of apples and 
oranges.
Chris


-----Original Message-----
From: Chris de Morsella <cdemorse...@yahoo.com>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Mar 5, 2014 4:43 pm
Subject: Re: The situation at Fukushima appears to be deteriorating

        From: John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com>
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 7:39 AM
Subject: Re: The situation at Fukushima appears to be deteriorating


On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 11:38 PM, Chris de Morsella 
<cdemorse...@yahoo.com> wrote:> The biggest energy source we 
have available in fact is energy efficiency.


>>I am certainly in favor of energy efficiency, only a fool would 
not be, but it is not the solution to our energy problem because when a 
commodity like energy becomes cheaper people simply use more of it. If 
somebody invented a gadget that doubled the fuel efficiency of 
jetliners it would not cut in half the amount of fuel that airlines use 
because people would fly more often and airplanes would hold fewer 
people due to their larger more comfortable seats. 


That is a failure of the markets. If energy efficiency marginally 
lowers the rate of consumption of fossil (and other) energy resources 
thus increasing the available current supply -- because we almost 
exclusively rely on these short term market price signals to determine 
consumption/production -- demand will tend to rise. This is well 
known.... paradoxically in effect punishing virtue and rewarding a self 
centered I-don't-give-a-damn mentality of consuming every resource as 
fast as possible.
Over the long term this will lead to our species discovering what the 
meaning of going over a cliff really is in the hardest of hard terms -- 
up to and including species extinction.
Energy and all other non-renewable and critical resources should be 
taxed and taxed heavily -- IMO. This is the other side of encouraging 
conserving these critical and non-renewable resources. Take phosphate 
for example -- the world is running out of the economically recoverable 
sources -- mined principally from just three sources: in Morocco (land 
seized by Morocco actually) , Florida, and if I recall somewhere in 
Russia. There is no incentive to conserve this vital resource and 
global supplies seem to have already peaked. Phosphorous is a critical 
ingredient of fertilizers.
Relying on market signals alone to determine how -- and at what pace -- 
finite resources are consumed is a recipe for disaster. The market will 
encourage us to burn through these resources as fast as we can, which 
is precisely what our species is doing.
Not the wisest course of action though, and a clear example of how the 
market mechanism is sending our civilization over the cliff.



>>By the way, have you noticed that politicians are always urging 
us to conserve energy but they don't seem to find it necessary to 
command us to  conserve angular momentum?    


Is there any real point here; or is this a political rant freebie?
Chris

  John K Clark 


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