On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 2:40 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 06 Jun 2014, at 15:56, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 2:50 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> I am not attacking the EU, but I am trying to see if your impressions of >> the US are based on experience or news. Since it is based on experience, >> were there any neighborhoods you would have been intimidated to visit, or, >> since, I am prompting you, as a non-US citizen, and speaking to the US >> crime rate-regarding executions, a part of a city where it's best to be >> cautious? >> > > I was warned against certain areas and I went there anyway. They looked > more grimy, but never had a problem. I fondly remember a poor crack addict > who wanted two things from me: cigarettes and to tell me about Jesus. I > agreed with both and everything was fine. > > >> My response is really for your post before this one, and your belief that >> (apparently) crime is prevalent everywhere in the US, because we have the >> death penalty. >> > > I never claimed this, perhaps you are confusing me with another poster. I > oppose the death penalty on principle: I believe it is wrong to kill other > human beings, except when absolutely necessary for self-defence. I believe > that violence generates more violence, but I never made any claims about > the crime rate in the USA. > > > > Yes, it was me. I as wrong (my statistics dates from the Badinter laws, > when death penalty was abolished in France). > In Belgium death penalty has been abolished about 20 years ago (I would > say), but it was no more applied since the first war 14-18, in the military. > > I agree that victims should be listen too, and helped, but I don't see how > killing people could help. I am not even sure it is a punishment at all, > compared to possible remorses, or jails for a long time. > > Bruno > > > Bruno, you may have just cleared something up for me. For some time now I have been puzzling over a particular phrase in the Christian Lord's prayer. It is "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as well as heaven" My problem with this plea is that I do not think the earth would be a good place for intelligent beings to evolve if it were controlled by god's will to the extent that it seems that the afterlife is. IMO evolution requires a world in which both good and evil can exist and intelligent beings can struggle over how to compromise the two extremes in the interest of getting things done. So why do we pray for life on the earth to be the same as heaven. Well one possibility is that the Roman that wrote that figured it would appeal to the downtrodden masses. But I would prefer a more inspired explanation, and your agreement that victims should be listened to and helped suggested it. I would extend the same offer to the perpetrators, but that is an aside. Basically I see heaven as a place where the dead can recoup from the hazards of life, and also where the evil in a dead person is removed before sending back to another life on earth, but not a place where there is much opportunity for ethical evolution. It is said that much more can be accomplished in life than in death, something that will resonate with the atheists on this list. So to complete the circle back to how God's will on earth could be the same as in heaven without any basic changes to life on earth, the explanation I am looking for is along the lines of: (1) God's will is conjectured to be to save souls, which I interpret to mean to evolve each person spiritually over many lifetimes. (2) God's will on earth is therefore for each human being to evolve as much as possible in a single lifetime. Thus (?) killing perpetrators out of vengeance should be (and is in advance nations) being replaced by forgiveness on the part of the victims and by remorse and personal ethical evolution on the part of the perpetrator. Execution of the perpetrator curtails both the perpetrator's ethical evolution in this lifetime and the opportunity of forgiveness on the part of the victim, which IMO is also ethical evolution. It seems that evolution on heaven is either not possible or much less likely than on earth. Richard It seems that this was not your experience in real life, which would > contradict, perhaps, your world view. > On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 9:11 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> I shan't suggest that our rugged collective ancestors were happier than >> we, less spoiled yes, but happier no. >> > > Of course, this is pure speculation. Who knows? > There is some empirical evidence that depression is on the rise, but this > could be for a number or reasons. > > >> Have any of you folks visited the US? It is, for whatever its worth is >> a nation state of about 320 million inhabitants. >> > > I was lucky enough to be able to visit it a number of times. I have been > to 9 states so far, spanning the east and west coast, the south and middle > america. I loved it every single time and hope to go more times -- although > I am less inclined theses days because the TSA freaks me out. Overall the > USA felt very welcoming. People are nicer to strangers than in Europe. I am > also an admirer of parts of USA history, including its constitutional > principles. I think the declaration of independence is a beautiful document > and a turing point in world history. It states that life is an unalienable > right, that the government exists to protect. > > >> Dopamine is not justice, >> > > Sure. "Justice" is a superstition. > > >> nor, is it respect for one's fellow primates, but do you view it as a >> place where the streets run red with blood? >> > > No, as per above. > > >> What communities in the US are the most violent? >> > > The police and the military. > > >> I am not trying to dissuade you folks of your views, but am fascinated >> by the notion, that, because we are easier on criminals, life is thus, >> better, and so are we, as societies. >> > > The idea that violence leads to more violence doesn't seem so > far-fetched to me. But hey... > > >> In the 1990's the US experienced a domestic terrorist strike in >> Oklahoma, City in 1995. In 1993, the Muslim Brotherhood tried the same >> thing, but failed, in 1993 at the Twin Towers in NYC. Timothy MacVeigh was >> executed, and I see that as the right revenge for Breivik. MacVeigh killed >> 164 people. No dopamine is necessary, and despite his sentencing, how long >> will Breivik remain in jail? >> > > There is a lot to dislike about Europe, but one thing can be said for > us: we don't base our justice system on revenge anymore. The police forces > are mostly passive, they react to complains instead of looking for people > to punish. The goal of the judicial system is to lower crime rates, not to > provide revenge. I feel safer in such a system, and it appears to work > quite well. > > Telmo. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> > To: everything-list <[email protected]> > Sent: Fri, Jun 6, 2014 7:23 am > Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back! > > > > > On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 9:11 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> I shan't suggest that our rugged collective ancestors were happier than >> we, less spoiled yes, but happier no. >> > > Of course, this is pure speculation. Who knows? > There is some empirical evidence that depression is on the rise, but this > could be for a number or reasons. > > >> Have any of you folks visited the US? It is, for whatever its worth is >> a nation state of about 320 million inhabitants. >> > > I was lucky enough to be able to visit it a number of times. I have been > to 9 states so far, spanning the east and west coast, the south and middle > america. I loved it every single time and hope to go more times -- although > I am less inclined theses days because the TSA freaks me out. Overall the > USA felt very welcoming. People are nicer to strangers than in Europe. I am > also an admirer of parts of USA history, including its constitutional > principles. I think the declaration of independence is a beautiful document > and a turing point in world history. It states that life is an unalienable > right, that the government exists to protect. > > >> Dopamine is not justice, >> > > Sure. "Justice" is a superstition. > > >> nor, is it respect for one's fellow primates, but do you view it as a >> place where the streets run red with blood? >> > > No, as per above. > > >> What communities in the US are the most violent? >> > > The police and the military. > > >> I am not trying to dissuade you folks of your views, but am fascinated >> by the notion, that, because we are easier on criminals, life is thus, >> better, and so are we, as societies. >> > > The idea that violence leads to more violence doesn't seem so > far-fetched to me. But hey... > > >> In the 1990's the US experienced a domestic terrorist strike in >> Oklahoma, City in 1995. In 1993, the Muslim Brotherhood tried the same >> thing, but failed, in 1993 at the Twin Towers in NYC. Timothy MacVeigh was >> executed, and I see that as the right revenge for Breivik. MacVeigh killed >> 164 people. No dopamine is necessary, and despite his sentencing, how long >> will Breivik remain in jail? >> > > There is a lot to dislike about Europe, but one thing can be said for > us: we don't base our justice system on revenge anymore. The police forces > are mostly passive, they react to complains instead of looking for people > to punish. The goal of the judicial system is to lower crime rates, not to > provide revenge. I feel safer in such a system, and it appears to work > quite well. > > Telmo. > >> You could argue that we are unlucky to be living in 2014, and that our >> hunter-gatherer ancestors lead happier and more fulfilling lives. This >> might well be the case, because they were leading lives in the environment >> that they were evolved to live in. On the other hand, we have technology >> and reason on our side. We can create dopamine hits artificially to relieve >> people in need, without causing further violence. The only thing preventing >> us are superstitions inherited from a distant past. In 2011, Anders Breivik >> sought to punish race-traitors, and the Socialist Party summer camp, >> >> Telmo. >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> >> To: everything-list <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wed, Jun 4, 2014 7:05 am >> Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back! >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 11:03 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> You may be correct indeed, but if being part of the "civilized world" >>> protects violent, predatory, criminals, including, (drumroll) Islamists and >>> Putin, the I suppose I will demur from being civilized. Most capital >>> crimes, even in Texas, are crimes of passion. I don't see it (no death >>> penalty) as being civilized, I view it as an excuse to be uncaring toward >>> the victim's family. >>> >> >> The desire for vengeance is hard-wired in our brains. We get a good >> dopamine hit from it, which might relief the suffering of people who are >> grieving. Now, in 2014, we can recognise this mechanism for what it is. It >> was probably useful for our hunter-gatherer ancestors, but it is >> maladaptive in a globalised world with 7 billion people and nuclear weapons. >> >> You could argue that we are unlucky to be living in 2014, and that our >> hunter-gatherer ancestors lead happier and more fulfilling lives. This >> might well be the case, because they were leading lives in the environment >> that they were evolved to live in. On the other hand, we have technology >> and reason on our side. We can create dopamine hits artificially to relieve >> people in need, without causing further violence. The only thing preventing >> us are superstitions inherited from a distant past. >> >> Telmo. >> >> >>> The USA are alone in this. It's not some uncertain utopia, it has >>> been fully achieved in most of the civilised world. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> >>> To: everything-list <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Tue, Jun 3, 2014 6:57 am >>> Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 12:47 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> No death penalties. I am not sure I agree, but if this is the goal, >>>> then things need to be done really differently. >>>> >>> >>> Hum? Check this out: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Capital_punishment.PNG >>> >>> The USA are alone in this. It's not some uncertain utopia, it has been >>> fully achieved in most of the civilised world. >>> >>> Telmo. >>> >>>> I am not sure what you mean by "to seek my goal". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: LizR <[email protected]> >>>> To: everything-list <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Mon, Jun 2, 2014 6:48 pm >>>> Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back! >>>> >>>> On 3 June 2014 10:28, spudboy100 via Everything List < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> To seek your goal I am guessing elements of society, law, and >>>>> technology, must improve. >>>> >>>> >>>> I am not sure what you mean by "to seek my goal". >>>> >>>> >>>>> For many, nothing is broken, or they have an interest in things >>>>> continuing as they are. We'd have to get into problem soving mode to do >>>>> all >>>>> that. The world does not seem to be in a problem solving mood. >>>>> >>>>> This is of course true, "business as usual" is nideed in the process >>>> of destroying the world. Not sure what it has to do with the previous topic >>>> but FWIW I agree. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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