On 15 Aug 2014, at 05:12, meekerdb wrote:
On 8/14/2014 5:50 PM, Russell Standish wrote:
On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 12:09:27PM +1200, LizR wrote:
On 15 August 2014 09:29, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote:
On 8/14/2014 11:40 AM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:
Then it'd be no problem for you guys to clearly spell out what that
environment is.
Yes, that's a problem. The MGA considers a computational
sequence that
produces some conscious thought. I think that in order for the
computational sequence to have meaning it must refer to some
context in
which decision or action is possible. That's what makes it about
something
and not just a sequence of events. I initially thought of it in
terms of
the extra states that had to be available for counterfactual
correctness in
response to an external environment, e.g. seeing something,
having a K_40
atom decay in your brain. But now I've think the necessity of
reference is
different than counterfactual correctness. For example if you
had a
recording of the computations of an autonomous Mars Rover they
wouldn't
really constitute a computation because the recording would not
have the
possibility of branching in response to inputs. And the inputs
wouldn't
necessarily be external, at a different state of the Rover's
learning the
same sequence might have triggered a different association from
memory. So
the referents are not necessarily just external, they include all
of memory
as well.
Given that comp assumes consciousness supervenes on classical
computation,
it's still hard for me to imagine what the difference is that
counterfactuals or meaning supply. That is, a classical
computation (as
opposed to a quantum one...perhaps???) is a well-defined set of
steps, and
if you re-run them in the MGA they're identical. There may be no
possibility of reacting differently to different inputs, but I
can't see
what difference - i.e. what real, physical, engineering (etc) type
difference that makes. If consciousness is digitally emulable,
then it can
be replayed, and whatever "counterfactuals" and "meanings" that the
consciousness may attach to its internal states or (replayed)
inputs will
be repeated.
So in a nutshell I can't see how, assuming consciousness
supervenes on
physical computation, that "being about something" or having
"meaning" or
"needing counterfactual correctness" -- or needing a real
environment, for
that matter, as opposed to identically repeated inputs -- can make
any
difference to whether the UTM in question is conscious. Because a
system
that interacts with an environment and one that replays that
interaction
exactly are, or can in theory be made, physically identical.
What am I missing?
The consequence of assuming that counterfactuals make no difference
in
your supervenience thesis is that it implies consciousness supervenes
on a recording. I constantly stumbled over this point too, as it is
not
adequately spelled out in typical formulations of the computational
supervenience thesis.
That does seem strange, but I don't know that it strikes me as
*absurd*. Isn't it clearer that a recording is not a computation?
And so if consciousness supervened on a recording it would prove
that consciousness did not require computation?
Yes, I agree that a recording is not a computation, even when it
physically mimic a a physical system emulating a particular computation.
But it is a false problem, as consciousness will supervene on all
computations going through the relevant state (existing by the comp
assumption). They occurs in infinitely many computations
phi_i(j)^n, n = 0, 1, 2, 3, ...
For some, that is a bridge too far. Maybe you could try following
Bruno's "stroboscope argument" to see if that persuades. (Not sure if
there's an English language version about, though).
I did explained it on this list (or was it on FOAR). It should be
retrievable with the key word "stroboscope" in the archive, or I can
explain it if asked.
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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