On 25 Nov 2014, at 17:54, Richard Ruquist wrote:
On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 7:17 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 24 Nov 2014, at 16:58, Richard Ruquist wrote:
On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 9:47 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 24 Nov 2014, at 11:35, Richard Ruquist wrote:
On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 4:05 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 23 Nov 2014, at 18:11, Richard Ruquist wrote:
Bruno: I doubt a photon needs to double his energy to go through
two slits
Richard: You should be ashamed
That's hardly an argument.
Agreed
Einstein already understood that if the collapse was a physical
phenomenon, and if special relativity was correct, then locality
would make a wave possibly collapse on two different eigenvector,
like sometimes finding literally the photon going in both hole. In
that case, the energy would be double, and the schroedinger
"diffusion" of the wave could be used to ... create energy. A
quantum perpetual machine could be constructed, and, pace George
Levy, but following John Clark's quote of Eddington, we can stop
here ...
Yes. I like Einstein's single pinhole thought experiment the best.
The incident photon spreads in spherical waves beyond the hole
from ray optics. So if waves could carry energy, the energy
density would drop by 1/r^2 where r is distance from the hole.
If we wrap the experiment with a spherical detector sheet, the
energy density incident on the sheet would be a constant across
the spherical sheet and the amount incident on any detector would
be a fraction of the photon energy. So there is not enough energy
incident on any detector to make a photon of the original energy.
That's classical thinking and it is wrong.
With MWI thinking, every detector will detect a photon at the same
energy and frequency as the original photon but in a different
world. So the total energy in the multiverse will locally have
increased by the number of detectors times the photon energy. The
only way to conserve energy is to detect only one photon of the
same energy and frequency as the original photon.
... or the conservation of energy is something which has to be
accounted in branches, not in the multiverse.
Fine as long as the input energy in each branch is normalized by
the quantum probabilities
No, the conservation of energy is global, and should be
statistically verified in the normal (non Harry-Potter-like) branches.
But the collapse is not physical, it belongs to the mind of the
people, fungible and then differentiated, in the infinite tensor
product, which, with computationalism, should be a mirror of the
fact that we are indeterminate on infinitely many sigma_1
sentences, where the ortholattice structure is determined by the
logic of self-reference.
My opinion is that collapse is what makes objects physical.
That is my opinion too. But the collapse is a psychological
phenomenon, making directly the physical into something
psychological.
Fine as long the process uses the correct initial conditions for
each branch
?
Everything else is just math (and deterministic.) So everything
that could possibly happen can be computed ahead of time in a
block 4 dimensional muliverse that I call the Math Space........
With collapse, the physical space becomes lines in the Math Space.
That is not an argument. It is just how I see reality.
OK.
For a computationalist (who thinks), the collapse is not real, but
the wave is not real too. It is itself the product of a Moiré
effect on all computations.
I agree. With computationalism nothing is real except the math.
All is illusion- maya. So comp must have the support of Hinduism
and Buddhism.
And christianism before the 5th century, and judaism and Islam,
before the 11th century. The obsession with matter came later. I
find this weird, because there are no evidence for it.
I'll take your word for it. So its not in history books?
I think it is well known, at least by the scholars. I agree that I
am a bit oversimplifying, by lack of time. The fact is that is that
until Maimonides, there were as much platonist and aristotelian
among the religious people.
Religion, in a wide sense, are platonist at the start. What we see
is not the real or the whole thing. Thus comes the idea of God, as
the reason *behind* what we see, and the idea of science: let us
find what really is. But Aristotelianism, which is very natural from
the first person view (the brain is programmed to take seriously
what we "see"), has made the human forgetting that science
(including theology) comes from askeptical attitude with the idea
that we are directly related to what we can measure and observe.
I prefer to think that both quantum waves and particles are real,
but that waves are math objects and particles are physical
objects. Again that is not an argument..
My argument is that the block multiverse, if it were to become
entirely physical as MWI poses,
Not necessarily. In fact comp offers a compromise between the
idealist (the quantum describes only information) and many-worlds,
by introducing the idea that reality is the many-dream aspect that
arithmetic got when seen from inside. Of course, both the idealist
and the MW are not satisfied, and in science, we still kill the
diplomats.
Yes, many-dream arithmetic is part of Math Space
I would say that the math space is part of the dream of numbers.
Analysis is part of numbers' imagination/simplification.
would require a nearly infinite amount of energy to exist, and
more and more as time goes on. That of course is impossible. So MW
reality must be illusion.
Unless energy is an illusion.
Of course, along with matter.
Another way to look at it is that conservation of energy comes
from Noether's time symmetry. But there is no need for time in a
block multiverse. So there is no need for the conservation of
energy.
Conservation of energy is still an open problem in computationalist
theology. But the logic of self-reference seems to be capable of
explaining it, by imposing reversibility and linearity at the
sigma_1 bottom (the global indeterminacy domain of the first person).
The alternative is some kind of mathematical wave collapse to
conserve both energy and quanta, which fortunately results in a
unique reality where time matters.
From the first person point of view.
Yes! Each branch that a particular person is following (with wave
collapse at every junction) is a unique POV.
OK. With apparent wave collapse.
I have suggested that if the wave has BEC entanglement properties,
that collapse may be instantaneous.
Except for being macroscopic state, I am not sure why BEC
entanglement is so special.
Experimentally entangled BECs have EPR properties including instant
transfer of correlations.
So BEC are just macroscopic, but only entanglement is used. Then you
know my feeling: I don't believe that the violation of Bell's
inequality introduces any instant transfer of correlation. Such
instant transfer exists only if we assume that measurement gives
unique outcome, which is not the case if there is no collapse.
This is the crux of our disagreement about the meaning of
experimental results.
Consider an pinhole experiment with an Airy pattern (on the detector
screen in the large number of events limit).
The central lobe contains 1/2 of the integrated probability and so
detections will come from there 1/2 of the time.
If the incoming photons are coherent (in-phase with each other) at
least 1/2 of the photons coming out of the detector will be coherent
and in the same world. The remaining photons with random phase are
just noise. Without instant wave collapse they are even scattered in
multiple worlds..
With instant wave collapse, all of the photons detected are
coherent. due to instant entanglement.
I don't understand. Sorry. If you have a link with the equation,
perhaps I can figure out what happens.
Bruno
That's an easy experiment. We needed the answer to do adaptive
optics for high power laser transmission to space.
Richard
But that collapse mechanism uses experiment-derived properties
rather than math for lack of any time dependence.
You can elaborate on this, as I am not sure to follow.
The experimental data indicates that the correlations of entangled
but separate BECs are transferred faster than detector accuracy. I
am willing to assume instant transfer. If so, there is no time
dependence- no process that math could predict. Correlations are
of course a holding-place word like entanglement where we lump all
properties we cannot explain.
Theoretical physics work on black holes concludes that for black
holes to communicate classically, the correlations must be
monogamous- one on one.. That is, all black holes communicate
quantum mechanically over Einstein-Rosen ER Bridges. But to
communicate classically, that is to talk, you must shrink the area
of all ERs to zero (compactification) except one, ER throat area
being proportional to entanglement entropy. http://arxiv.org/pdf/1308.0289v1.pdf
Hypothesizing that particles may behave like black holes, that
explains wave collapse using quantum geometry..
arxiv.org/pdf/hep-th/0405152.pdf
I will take a look asap. My current position is that 3p
indeterminacy and 3p non-locality do not make much sense. (But then,
with comp 3p physics is only an 1p plural subjective construct, and
computationalism explains why there must be 1p (plural)
indeterminacy, and non-locality, but it is only an effect of
perspective, related to our global ignorance of not knowing which
computations support us below our substitution level.
Bruno
Richard Ruquist 20141124
www.bostonalarm.com
Bruno
Richard
Bruno
On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 11:48 AM, Bruno Marchal
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 23 Nov 2014, at 12:32, Richard Ruquist wrote:
Yes, and as the branches multiply, so does the energy.
I doubt this, but eventually this will depend on how we define
energy. I doubt a photon needs to double his energy to go through
two slits, and I doubt Shor algorithm needs energy to handle
10^500 parallel superposition state. Energy is a local relative
(gauge) notion, which I am not sure can be easily applied to the
whole configuration space, which energy can be put a zero.
Of course with computationalism there is only an arithmetical
reality, and all physicalness is a view from inside. All branches
of all computations including the one with oracle are run in the
arithmetical reality, and it is clear, imo, that energy is only
an internal relative notion. Of course we need to justify why the
reversible computations win the limit measure "game".
Bruno
On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 3:52 AM, LizR <[email protected]> wrote:
On 21 November 2014 23:07, Richard Ruquist <[email protected]>
wrote:
It seems, yes. In our branch. But not in the physical reality as
a whole, where information and energy are constant, and
arbitrary I would say.
Energy is not constant in the MWI multiverse.
Energy is not constant in a general-relativistic universe.
I believe energy is approximately conserved within a branch of
the multiverse, in the MWI view? The "approximately" being
because branches are only approximately defined?
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