Entropy and Time seem related, or at least one seems at least one aspect of the other. Is it sensible to think then, that there are two or more types of entropy, therefore, there are at least two dimensions of time?
-----Original Message----- From: Richard Ruquist <[email protected]> To: everything-list <[email protected]> Sent: Wed, Nov 26, 2014 7:29 am Subject: Re: Two apparently different forms of entropy Turns out that I do not understand it either. The pinhole thought experiment should decrease the coherent photons by a factor of 2 regardless of whether the incoherent photons are in separate branches or not. So the result is the same for MWI and wave collapse. Richard On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 3:46 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: On 25 Nov 2014, at 17:54, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 7:17 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: On 24 Nov 2014, at 16:58, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 9:47 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: On 24 Nov 2014, at 11:35, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 4:05 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: On 23 Nov 2014, at 18:11, Richard Ruquist wrote: Bruno: I doubt a photon needs to double his energy to go through two slits Richard: You should be ashamed That's hardly an argument. Agreed Einstein already understood that if the collapse was a physical phenomenon, and if special relativity was correct, then locality would make a wave possibly collapse on two different eigenvector, like sometimes finding literally the photon going in both hole. In that case, the energy would be double, and the schroedinger "diffusion" of the wave could be used to ... create energy. A quantum perpetual machine could be constructed, and, pace George Levy, but following John Clark's quote of Eddington, we can stop here ... Yes. I like Einstein's single pinhole thought experiment the best. The incident photon spreads in spherical waves beyond the hole from ray optics. So if waves could carry energy, the energy density would drop by 1/r^2 where r is distance from the hole. If we wrap the experiment with a spherical detector sheet, the energy density incident on the sheet would be a constant across the spherical sheet and the amount incident on any detector would be a fraction of the photon energy. So there is not enough energy incident on any detector to make a photon of the original energy. That's classical thinking and it is wrong. With MWI thinking, every detector will detect a photon at the same energy and frequency as the original photon but in a different world. So the total energy in the multiverse will locally have increased by the number of detectors times the photon energy. The only way to conserve energy is to detect only one photon of the same energy and frequency as the original photon. ... or the conservation of energy is something which has to be accounted in branches, not in the multiverse. Fine as long as the input energy in each branch is normalized by the quantum probabilities No, the conservation of energy is global, and should be statistically verified in the normal (non Harry-Potter-like) branches. But the collapse is not physical, it belongs to the mind of the people, fungible and then differentiated, in the infinite tensor product, which, with computationalism, should be a mirror of the fact that we are indeterminate on infinitely many sigma_1 sentences, where the ortholattice structure is determined by the logic of self-reference. My opinion is that collapse is what makes objects physical. That is my opinion too. But the collapse is a psychological phenomenon, making directly the physical into something psychological. Fine as long the process uses the correct initial conditions for each branch ? Everything else is just math (and deterministic.) So everything that could possibly happen can be computed ahead of time in a block 4 dimensional muliverse that I call the Math Space........ With collapse, the physical space becomes lines in the Math Space. That is not an argument. It is just how I see reality. OK. For a computationalist (who thinks), the collapse is not real, but the wave is not real too. It is itself the product of a Moiré effect on all computations. I agree. With computationalism nothing is real except the math. All is illusion- maya. So comp must have the support of Hinduism and Buddhism. And christianism before the 5th century, and judaism and Islam, before the 11th century. The obsession with matter came later. I find this weird, because there are no evidence for it. I'll take your word for it. So its not in history books? I think it is well known, at least by the scholars. I agree that I am a bit oversimplifying, by lack of time. The fact is that is that until Maimonides, there were as much platonist and aristotelian among the religious people. Religion, in a wide sense, are platonist at the start. What we see is not the real or the whole thing. Thus comes the idea of God, as the reason *behind* what we see, and the idea of science: let us find what really is. But Aristotelianism, which is very natural from the first person view (the brain is programmed to take seriously what we "see"), has made the human forgetting that science (including theology) comes from askeptical attitude with the idea that we are directly related to what we can measure and observe. I prefer to think that both quantum waves and particles are real, but that waves are math objects and particles are physical objects. Again that is not an argument.. My argument is that the block multiverse, if it were to become entirely physical as MWI poses, Not necessarily. In fact comp offers a compromise between the idealist (the quantum describes only information) and many-worlds, by introducing the idea that reality is the many-dream aspect that arithmetic got when seen from inside. Of course, both the idealist and the MW are not satisfied, and in science, we still kill the diplomats. Yes, many-dream arithmetic is part of Math Space I would say that the math space is part of the dream of numbers. Analysis is part of numbers' imagination/simplification. would require a nearly infinite amount of energy to exist, and more and more as time goes on. That of course is impossible. So MW reality must be illusion. Unless energy is an illusion. Of course, along with matter. Another way to look at it is that conservation of energy comes from Noether's time symmetry. But there is no need for time in a block multiverse. So there is no need for the conservation of energy. Conservation of energy is still an open problem in computationalist theology. But the logic of self-reference seems to be capable of explaining it, by imposing reversibility and linearity at the sigma_1 bottom (the global indeterminacy domain of the first person). The alternative is some kind of mathematical wave collapse to conserve both energy and quanta, which fortunately results in a unique reality where time matters. >From the first person point of view. Yes! Each branch that a particular person is following (with wave collapse at every junction) is a unique POV. OK. With apparent wave collapse. I have suggested that if the wave has BEC entanglement properties, that collapse may be instantaneous. Except for being macroscopic state, I am not sure why BEC entanglement is so special. Experimentally entangled BECs have EPR properties including instant transfer of correlations. So BEC are just macroscopic, but only entanglement is used. Then you know my feeling: I don't believe that the violation of Bell's inequality introduces any instant transfer of correlation. Such instant transfer exists only if we assume that measurement gives unique outcome, which is not the case if there is no collapse. This is the crux of our disagreement about the meaning of experimental results. Consider an pinhole experiment with an Airy pattern (on the detector screen in the large number of events limit). The central lobe contains 1/2 of the integrated probability and so detections will come from there 1/2 of the time. If the incoming photons are coherent (in-phase with each other) at least 1/2 of the photons coming out of the detector will be coherent and in the same world. The remaining photons with random phase are just noise. Without instant wave collapse they are even scattered in multiple worlds.. With instant wave collapse, all of the photons detected are coherent. due to instant entanglement. I don't understand. Sorry. If you have a link with the equation, perhaps I can figure out what happens. Bruno That's an easy experiment. We needed the answer to do adaptive optics for high power laser transmission to space. Richard But that collapse mechanism uses experiment-derived properties rather than math for lack of any time dependence. You can elaborate on this, as I am not sure to follow. The experimental data indicates that the correlations of entangled but separate BECs are transferred faster than detector accuracy. I am willing to assume instant transfer. If so, there is no time dependence- no process that math could predict. Correlations are of course a holding-place word like entanglement where we lump all properties we cannot explain. Theoretical physics work on black holes concludes that for black holes to communicate classically, the correlations must be monogamous- one on one.. That is, all black holes communicate quantum mechanically over Einstein-Rosen ER Bridges. But to communicate classically, that is to talk, you must shrink the area of all ERs to zero (compactification) except one, ER throat area being proportional to entanglement entropy. http://arxiv.org/pdf/1308.0289v1.pdf Hypothesizing that particles may behave like black holes, that explains wave collapse using quantum geometry.. arxiv.org/pdf/hep-th/0405152.pdf I will take a look asap. My current position is that 3p indeterminacy and 3p non-locality do not make much sense. (But then, with comp 3p physics is only an 1p plural subjective construct, and computationalism explains why there must be 1p (plural) indeterminacy, and non-locality, but it is only an effect of perspective, related to our global ignorance of not knowing which computations support us below our substitution level. Bruno Richard Ruquist 20141124 www.bostonalarm.com Bruno Richard Bruno On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 11:48 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: On 23 Nov 2014, at 12:32, Richard Ruquist wrote: Yes, and as the branches multiply, so does the energy. I doubt this, but eventually this will depend on how we define energy. I doubt a photon needs to double his energy to go through two slits, and I doubt Shor algorithm needs energy to handle 10^500 parallel superposition state. Energy is a local relative (gauge) notion, which I am not sure can be easily applied to the whole configuration space, which energy can be put a zero. Of course with computationalism there is only an arithmetical reality, and all physicalness is a view from inside. All branches of all computations including the one with oracle are run in the arithmetical reality, and it is clear, imo, that energy is only an internal relative notion. Of course we need to justify why the reversible computations win the limit measure "game". Bruno On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 3:52 AM, LizR <[email protected]> wrote: On 21 November 2014 23:07, Richard Ruquist <[email protected]> wrote: It seems, yes. In our branch. But not in the physical reality as a whole, where information and energy are constant, and arbitrary I would say. Energy is not constant in the MWI multiverse. Energy is not constant in a general-relativistic universe. I believe energy is approximately conserved within a branch of the multiverse, in the MWI view? The "approximately" being because branches are only approximately defined? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. 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