Democracy is an false envelope, a fetish name for a what is the best of the western world. The freedom and innovation is not nor event would be based of democracy. If the idea of democracy - that is the idea that the truth comes from consensus, were the thing that gives freedom and innovation, then herds of sheeps would have been exploring the galaxy millions of years ago. It should not be necessary forme to explain this to you.
What gives freedom is the respect for the individual. That does not come from democracy. democracy may be a (maybe wrong) consecuence of the respect for the individual. This respect comes from outside of the political system. It comes from Christianity. it will last for as much as Christianity will endure. And will end in the very moment that Christianity is repressed. I invite you to look at the (frequent) moments of supression of freedom in Europe. 2014-12-22 18:42 GMT+01:00 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>: > > On 22 Dec 2014, at 15:42, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > > >Democracy makes it possible to live differently from the mainstream. It > is >not easy, and democracy is not enough, but it can help better than a > tyrant >or community enforcing arbitrary rules without means of contesting > them. > > And what differences "Democracy" from a tirant or community enforcing > arbitrary rules without means of contesting them?. > > Democracy is a ritualized form of brute force. The root of the democratic > idea is the sacralization of numeric force. And the legitimation is, > consciously or unconsciously, the realization for everyone, that the > majority would win a bloody confrontation. > > That IS the TRUE legitimization of democracy. In the same way that two > deers will not fight if one show bigger horns, since the result of the > combat is already know. Each side of a democratic contest does not fight > for the same reason. > > The difference is that in democracy the force comes from the highest > pitch for the best short term offer in exchange for the longer term > disaster. The coalition that accept that mix of offer and lies is the > Tyrant. > > > > Well, you will not succeed in breaking my pleasure to see democracy making > progress in East-europa and in the middle-east, where it means to just been > able to discuss and gossip behind a beer or a coffee without fearing > delation from some spy hostage of the power. And today my pleasure is made > great with the election of a laic muslim in Tunisia. > > I even consider that Egypt's democracy has win when people elected the > Muslim Brotherhood, and has still win when the same people re-install > courageously the military dictatorship once they saw the persecution of > jews and christian coming back, and when they understood that a military > dictatorship was the only way to save the possibility of a democracy in > some middle run, a possibility that the fanatic islamists were threatening. > > It is easy to criticize democracy in a democacry (even old and sick), but > most people living in non democratic regime suffer a lot, and have no > hope---except for the ruling minority which can stand for many generations. > > Would you prefer to live in North Korea or in South Korea? Honestly. Come > on. > > Democracy is not perfect. A bit like computationalism, it is not the > solution of the problems, but an efficacious frame making it possible to > formulate the problems, and listen to different solutions, and keep the > extremists at bay. > > Yes, a democracy can be tyrannic, or lead to a tyranny, but with a > tyranny, well you are already in the tyranny, and you can fear even your > friends and brothers and sisters. > > Bruno > > > > > 2014-12-22 13:24 GMT+01:00 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>: > >> >> On 22 Dec 2014, at 00:36, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 1:41 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 18 Dec 2014, at 10:58, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On 17 Dec 2014, at 13:03, Alberto G. Corona wrote: >>>> >>>> Starting from the fact that The NHS was introduced by Bismark in the >>>> German Empire. for the same reasons that it is sustained today by >>>> "democracies": populism. >>>> >>>> Since the introduction of NHS in England no new hospital was >>>> constructed until recently. >>>> >>>> Democracy, an element of the liberal state, lives on premises that it >>>> can not itself guarantee. (Bockenforde). It is based on the idea that >>>> people will not act or vote for their inmediate interests but will vote >>>> for anything that maintain the common good forever. That is absolutely >>>> false. The only thing that maintain democracy is not democracy, but the >>>> morality of the people. That morality is contunuously underminded by >>>> democracy itself by means of the logic of populism and the formation of >>>> majorities that produce false and impossible and incompatible political >>>> promises for different groups of people. That divides and confront ones >>>> with others. >>>> >>>> It is based on the idea that a million idiot votes within an urn >>>> produces wise decissions. On the idea that consensus produce truth. >>>> >>>> Democracy is destined to be hyaked by false democrats that do not >>>> believe in democracy but want to abuse it from inside . They are the worst >>>> antidemocrats. And the responsibles of that hyaking are te dumb people that >>>> believe acritically in democracy. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I disagree. Democracy is based on the fact that people will vote for >>>> their immediate interest, and that it will be implemented reasonably well >>>> by opportunist politicians, and if they don't succeed people will stop >>>> voting against them. (so it is not just vote, but a promise that you can >>>> vote again if dissatisfied). >>>> >>> >>> Given a currency that cannot be manipulated by a central bank and that >>> is based on some limited resource, why not just implement democracy through >>> the free market? >>> >>> >>> OK, with some regulation, and a way to tackle propaganda, etc. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Everything you pay for is an instant vote. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Democracy is not perfect, and indeed it can regress easily to tyranny. >>>> Like a living being can die, or a cell become cancerous, democracy can >>>> easily be perverted and misused by bandits or ideologues. There is nothing >>>> we can do about that, except investing in means (like education, logic, >>>> reasoning, ...) helping people to not fall in the trap of the demagogs. >>>> >>> >>> But once the education system is both compulsory and under the control >>> of the state, if the state gets corrupted how to spread education logic and >>> reasoning and still work within the system? >>> >>> >>> Well, if the state is corrupted up to the point of teachning 2+2=5, it >>> means the democracy does no more exist. In that case you need a revolution >>> (non violent if possible). >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> It is not the system which makes bad people. It is bad people which >>>> makes the system bad. >>>> >>> >>> I disagree. Systems can make bad people by learned helplessness. >>> >>> >>> How? >>> >> >> In my view: by showing you over and over that virtue is not rewarded. >> Brains are adaptive survival machines, very attuned to learn what works in >> their environments. >> >> >> >> Virtue is the reward. If someone practice a virtue for a reward, then it >> is not virtue. (Note that this is the basic wrongness of religion: it leads >> to people doing virtue for reward and not doing the wrong for fear of >> punishment, but who can really appreciate someone doing the good to you >> just because it fears a punishment? You get the fake virtue. >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> How americans have ever accepted prohibition remains a bit of a mystery >>>> to me. In this context, I am not so much for legalization of drugs than for >>>> penalization of prohibitionists, and education explaining how prohibition >>>> illustrates well a technic to kill democracy and its most important key >>>> features like the separation and independence of the different powers, >>>> including the press. >>>> >>>> But the institutionalization of religion, especially when the state and >>>> the religion are not well separated is a deeper cause of the problem for >>>> democracies. It is that mentality which has made possible prohibition: the >>>> very idea that other people can decide for you between the good and the >>>> wrong. That would not have happened if the spiritual domain remained what >>>> is really: an investigation domain like any others, calling for >>>> experiments, experiences and dialog, and no normative rules ever. Those are >>>> object of laws, voted by the people or representative delegates of the >>>> people. >>>> >>>> What would you suggest in place of democracy? If a democracy can be >>>> hijacked, don't you think that anything else couldn't even more >>>> easily be hijacked? >>>> >>> >>> I still have problems with discussing "democracy" as if it was a single, >>> well defined system. If you tell me that a state is a democracy, I still >>> want to know more, especially along two lines that I could call ethical and >>> scientific: >>> >>> Ethic: what are the limits on what the majority can impose on the >>> individual? How were these limits derived? >>> >>> >>> The majority cannot impose anything, except rules of laws. "not killing, >>> not crossing red fires, etc.". >>> >> >> Yes but these rules can go too much into the private-sphere. Thus the >> need for the constitutional meta-rules. >> >> >> No problem with this. >> >> >> >> >> >>> Then with democracy liberty can grow with the evolution of mentality. >>> Only in democracies have the right of homoseulas been recognized. In all >>> non-democracies they are still persecuted, etc. >>> >> >> There have been many societies that had had no problem with homosexuals. >> Modern homophobia and sexual morality sees to have spread from the >> protestants through the power of the English empire. One example of an >> ancient civilisation that discovered sexual repression in modernity through >> the victorians is Japan. >> >> >> Democracy makes it possible to live differently from the mainstream. It >> is not easy, and democracy is not enough, but it can help better than a >> tyrant or community enforcing arbitrary rules without means of contesting >> them. >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Scientific: how are bad decisions reversed? How is the "menu" of things >>> that I can vote for created? >>> >>> >>> By you, in case you find 500 people signing your program. (Well, that >>> the method here). Of course, it does no more work when the bandits got the >>> power. But that is lack of democracy, not democracy. >>> >> >> But it's not just the bandits, it's also game theory. Modern democracies >> suffer from a strong tendency to become Keynesian beauty contests. Very >> easily the optimal strategy for the big parties becomes a move to the >> average opinion. Some people say this is a good thing. I think it's a >> dangerous thing because it's self-reinforcing and because consensus and >> truth are very different things. >> >> >> That is why science is not democracy, but politics is not science, and >> consensus has no rôle. But democracies accept multiple temporary consensus. >> You have the choice to be with the gouvernment or with the opposition and >> with some hope, with the next government. Without democracy, you have to >> wait the death of the rulers. >> >> >> >> So I think removing the bandits is not enough. It is also necessary to >> analyse the democratic system scientifically and understand the incentives >> it creates. >> >> >> But in the human sphere, science asks only for more modesty and >> acceptance of the unknown, and to some flexibility. Then we can think and >> ameliorate the democracy. Sure. At no time will everyone be satisfied, but >> democracy allows change, and satisfaction of a majority, when it works of >> course. >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> The problem with making attacks on "democracy" tabu is that it also the >>> discussion of the above questions also becomes tabu. Just because we have a >>> democratic system doesn't mean we have a good one, from the infinite set of >>> possible democratic system. >>> >>> >>> Yes. democracy is necessary, but nver sufficient. democracy is the >>> start, and it can be improved, unlike all other systems known. >>> Unless you have a better idea, but usually, those against democracy are >>> either utopic belief in the nature of the humans, or want to impose a way >>> of life to everybody. I think. >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>> Telmo. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Bruno >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2014-12-16 15:44 GMT+01:00 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 15 Dec 2014, at 19:51, LizR wrote: >>>>> >>>>> What is funny - as well as sad and frightening - is the number of >>>>>> people here who apparently don't believe in democracy, even in principle. >>>>>> Democracy is the idea that we can elect people to do things for everyone >>>>>> else (the NHS, conservation, social security, infrastructure, >>>>>> regulations, >>>>>> police, army science etc etc). Yet all I can see here is people saying >>>>>> that >>>>>> it doesn't work. I think the truth is that it can be hijacked and THEN it >>>>>> doesn't work. The NHS (despite everything) was one of the greatest >>>>>> achievements of the 20th century, after all. And it was introduced by a >>>>>> government because of its beliefs and principles. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I agree completely with you. Like academies, democracies are the worst >>>>> except for anything else. >>>>> Many people criticize the system, and this *benefits* those who >>>>> pervert the system. Our democracies are sick (and partially hijacked by >>>>> corporatist interests), but this needs we must heal them, not condemn it. >>>>> >>>>> Bruno >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Alberto. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> >>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > > -- > Alberto. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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