The modern man is to politics what the ancient alchemists were to chemistry: Both believe that the final result depends on the shape of the recipient.
2014-12-23 23:14 GMT+01:00 Alberto G. Corona <[email protected]>: > Democracy is an false envelope, a fetish name for a what is the best of > the western world. The freedom and innovation is not nor event would be > based of democracy. If the idea of democracy - that is the idea that the > truth comes from consensus, were the thing that gives freedom and > innovation, then herds of sheeps would have been exploring the galaxy > millions of years ago. It should not be necessary forme to explain this to > you. > > What gives freedom is the respect for the individual. That does not come > from democracy. democracy may be a (maybe wrong) consecuence of the > respect for the individual. This respect comes from outside of the > political system. It comes from Christianity. it will last for as much as > Christianity will endure. And will end in the very moment that Christianity > is repressed. I invite you to look at the (frequent) moments of supression > of freedom in Europe. > > 2014-12-22 18:42 GMT+01:00 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>: > >> >> On 22 Dec 2014, at 15:42, Alberto G. Corona wrote: >> >> >Democracy makes it possible to live differently from the mainstream. It >> is >not easy, and democracy is not enough, but it can help better than a >> tyrant >or community enforcing arbitrary rules without means of contesting >> them. >> >> And what differences "Democracy" from a tirant or community enforcing >> arbitrary rules without means of contesting them?. >> >> Democracy is a ritualized form of brute force. The root of the democratic >> idea is the sacralization of numeric force. And the legitimation is, >> consciously or unconsciously, the realization for everyone, that the >> majority would win a bloody confrontation. >> >> That IS the TRUE legitimization of democracy. In the same way that two >> deers will not fight if one show bigger horns, since the result of the >> combat is already know. Each side of a democratic contest does not fight >> for the same reason. >> >> The difference is that in democracy the force comes from the highest >> pitch for the best short term offer in exchange for the longer term >> disaster. The coalition that accept that mix of offer and lies is the >> Tyrant. >> >> >> >> Well, you will not succeed in breaking my pleasure to see democracy >> making progress in East-europa and in the middle-east, where it means to >> just been able to discuss and gossip behind a beer or a coffee without >> fearing delation from some spy hostage of the power. And today my pleasure >> is made great with the election of a laic muslim in Tunisia. >> >> I even consider that Egypt's democracy has win when people elected the >> Muslim Brotherhood, and has still win when the same people re-install >> courageously the military dictatorship once they saw the persecution of >> jews and christian coming back, and when they understood that a military >> dictatorship was the only way to save the possibility of a democracy in >> some middle run, a possibility that the fanatic islamists were threatening. >> >> It is easy to criticize democracy in a democacry (even old and sick), but >> most people living in non democratic regime suffer a lot, and have no >> hope---except for the ruling minority which can stand for many generations. >> >> Would you prefer to live in North Korea or in South Korea? Honestly. Come >> on. >> >> Democracy is not perfect. A bit like computationalism, it is not the >> solution of the problems, but an efficacious frame making it possible to >> formulate the problems, and listen to different solutions, and keep the >> extremists at bay. >> >> Yes, a democracy can be tyrannic, or lead to a tyranny, but with a >> tyranny, well you are already in the tyranny, and you can fear even your >> friends and brothers and sisters. >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> 2014-12-22 13:24 GMT+01:00 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>: >> >>> >>> On 22 Dec 2014, at 00:36, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 1:41 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On 18 Dec 2014, at 10:58, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 17 Dec 2014, at 13:03, Alberto G. Corona wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Starting from the fact that The NHS was introduced by Bismark in the >>>>> German Empire. for the same reasons that it is sustained today by >>>>> "democracies": populism. >>>>> >>>>> Since the introduction of NHS in England no new hospital was >>>>> constructed until recently. >>>>> >>>>> Democracy, an element of the liberal state, lives on premises that it >>>>> can not itself guarantee. (Bockenforde). It is based on the idea that >>>>> people will not act or vote for their inmediate interests but will vote >>>>> for anything that maintain the common good forever. That is absolutely >>>>> false. The only thing that maintain democracy is not democracy, but the >>>>> morality of the people. That morality is contunuously underminded by >>>>> democracy itself by means of the logic of populism and the formation of >>>>> majorities that produce false and impossible and incompatible political >>>>> promises for different groups of people. That divides and confront ones >>>>> with others. >>>>> >>>>> It is based on the idea that a million idiot votes within an urn >>>>> produces wise decissions. On the idea that consensus produce truth. >>>>> >>>>> Democracy is destined to be hyaked by false democrats that do not >>>>> believe in democracy but want to abuse it from inside . They are the worst >>>>> antidemocrats. And the responsibles of that hyaking are te dumb people >>>>> that >>>>> believe acritically in democracy. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I disagree. Democracy is based on the fact that people will vote for >>>>> their immediate interest, and that it will be implemented reasonably well >>>>> by opportunist politicians, and if they don't succeed people will stop >>>>> voting against them. (so it is not just vote, but a promise that you can >>>>> vote again if dissatisfied). >>>>> >>>> >>>> Given a currency that cannot be manipulated by a central bank and that >>>> is based on some limited resource, why not just implement democracy through >>>> the free market? >>>> >>>> >>>> OK, with some regulation, and a way to tackle propaganda, etc. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Everything you pay for is an instant vote. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Democracy is not perfect, and indeed it can regress easily to tyranny. >>>>> Like a living being can die, or a cell become cancerous, democracy can >>>>> easily be perverted and misused by bandits or ideologues. There is nothing >>>>> we can do about that, except investing in means (like education, logic, >>>>> reasoning, ...) helping people to not fall in the trap of the demagogs. >>>>> >>>> >>>> But once the education system is both compulsory and under the control >>>> of the state, if the state gets corrupted how to spread education logic and >>>> reasoning and still work within the system? >>>> >>>> >>>> Well, if the state is corrupted up to the point of teachning 2+2=5, it >>>> means the democracy does no more exist. In that case you need a revolution >>>> (non violent if possible). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> It is not the system which makes bad people. It is bad people which >>>>> makes the system bad. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I disagree. Systems can make bad people by learned helplessness. >>>> >>>> >>>> How? >>>> >>> >>> In my view: by showing you over and over that virtue is not rewarded. >>> Brains are adaptive survival machines, very attuned to learn what works in >>> their environments. >>> >>> >>> >>> Virtue is the reward. If someone practice a virtue for a reward, then it >>> is not virtue. (Note that this is the basic wrongness of religion: it leads >>> to people doing virtue for reward and not doing the wrong for fear of >>> punishment, but who can really appreciate someone doing the good to you >>> just because it fears a punishment? You get the fake virtue. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> How americans have ever accepted prohibition remains a bit of a >>>>> mystery to me. In this context, I am not so much for legalization of drugs >>>>> than for penalization of prohibitionists, and education explaining how >>>>> prohibition illustrates well a technic to kill democracy and its most >>>>> important key features like the separation and independence of the >>>>> different powers, including the press. >>>>> >>>>> But the institutionalization of religion, especially when the state >>>>> and the religion are not well separated is a deeper cause of the problem >>>>> for democracies. It is that mentality which has made possible prohibition: >>>>> the very idea that other people can decide for you between the good and >>>>> the >>>>> wrong. That would not have happened if the spiritual domain remained what >>>>> is really: an investigation domain like any others, calling for >>>>> experiments, experiences and dialog, and no normative rules ever. Those >>>>> are >>>>> object of laws, voted by the people or representative delegates of the >>>>> people. >>>>> >>>>> What would you suggest in place of democracy? If a democracy can be >>>>> hijacked, don't you think that anything else couldn't even more >>>>> easily be hijacked? >>>>> >>>> >>>> I still have problems with discussing "democracy" as if it was a >>>> single, well defined system. If you tell me that a state is a democracy, I >>>> still want to know more, especially along two lines that I could call >>>> ethical and scientific: >>>> >>>> Ethic: what are the limits on what the majority can impose on the >>>> individual? How were these limits derived? >>>> >>>> >>>> The majority cannot impose anything, except rules of laws. "not >>>> killing, not crossing red fires, etc.". >>>> >>> >>> Yes but these rules can go too much into the private-sphere. Thus the >>> need for the constitutional meta-rules. >>> >>> >>> No problem with this. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Then with democracy liberty can grow with the evolution of mentality. >>>> Only in democracies have the right of homoseulas been recognized. In all >>>> non-democracies they are still persecuted, etc. >>>> >>> >>> There have been many societies that had had no problem with homosexuals. >>> Modern homophobia and sexual morality sees to have spread from the >>> protestants through the power of the English empire. One example of an >>> ancient civilisation that discovered sexual repression in modernity through >>> the victorians is Japan. >>> >>> >>> Democracy makes it possible to live differently from the mainstream. It >>> is not easy, and democracy is not enough, but it can help better than a >>> tyrant or community enforcing arbitrary rules without means of contesting >>> them. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Scientific: how are bad decisions reversed? How is the "menu" of things >>>> that I can vote for created? >>>> >>>> >>>> By you, in case you find 500 people signing your program. (Well, that >>>> the method here). Of course, it does no more work when the bandits got the >>>> power. But that is lack of democracy, not democracy. >>>> >>> >>> But it's not just the bandits, it's also game theory. Modern democracies >>> suffer from a strong tendency to become Keynesian beauty contests. Very >>> easily the optimal strategy for the big parties becomes a move to the >>> average opinion. Some people say this is a good thing. I think it's a >>> dangerous thing because it's self-reinforcing and because consensus and >>> truth are very different things. >>> >>> >>> That is why science is not democracy, but politics is not science, and >>> consensus has no rôle. But democracies accept multiple temporary consensus. >>> You have the choice to be with the gouvernment or with the opposition and >>> with some hope, with the next government. Without democracy, you have to >>> wait the death of the rulers. >>> >>> >>> >>> So I think removing the bandits is not enough. It is also necessary to >>> analyse the democratic system scientifically and understand the incentives >>> it creates. >>> >>> >>> But in the human sphere, science asks only for more modesty and >>> acceptance of the unknown, and to some flexibility. Then we can think and >>> ameliorate the democracy. Sure. At no time will everyone be satisfied, but >>> democracy allows change, and satisfaction of a majority, when it works of >>> course. >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The problem with making attacks on "democracy" tabu is that it also the >>>> discussion of the above questions also becomes tabu. Just because we have a >>>> democratic system doesn't mean we have a good one, from the infinite set of >>>> possible democratic system. >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes. democracy is necessary, but nver sufficient. democracy is the >>>> start, and it can be improved, unlike all other systems known. >>>> Unless you have a better idea, but usually, those against democracy are >>>> either utopic belief in the nature of the humans, or want to impose a way >>>> of life to everybody. I think. >>>> >>>> Bruno >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Telmo. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Bruno >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2014-12-16 15:44 GMT+01:00 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 15 Dec 2014, at 19:51, LizR wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> What is funny - as well as sad and frightening - is the number of >>>>>>> people here who apparently don't believe in democracy, even in >>>>>>> principle. >>>>>>> Democracy is the idea that we can elect people to do things for everyone >>>>>>> else (the NHS, conservation, social security, infrastructure, >>>>>>> regulations, >>>>>>> police, army science etc etc). Yet all I can see here is people saying >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> it doesn't work. I think the truth is that it can be hijacked and THEN >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> doesn't work. The NHS (despite everything) was one of the greatest >>>>>>> achievements of the 20th century, after all. And it was introduced by a >>>>>>> government because of its beliefs and principles. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree completely with you. Like academies, democracies are the >>>>>> worst except for anything else. >>>>>> Many people criticize the system, and this *benefits* those who >>>>>> pervert the system. Our democracies are sick (and partially hijacked by >>>>>> corporatist interests), but this needs we must heal them, not condemn it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bruno >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>>>> . >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Alberto. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> >>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Alberto. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > > -- > Alberto. > -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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