On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 1:44 AM, John Clark <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 11:12 PM, chris peck <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > We know that the overwhelmingly vast majority of muslims do not turn >> psychotic in the face of cartoons. >> > > And we know that the overwhelmingly vast majority of people who turn > psychotic in the face of cartoons are Muslims. And thanks to a recent > opinion poll we also know that 64% of the Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan > think the death penalty should be invoked for anyone who leaves Islam, and > in Afghanistan 78% of the Muslims think so. And in Iraq and Afghanistan > 60% of the Muslims think the killing of female family members by men should > be legal if the women "sully" the family honor. So I think calling such a > religion psychotic is a perfectly fair thing to do. > > >> > Secondly, we know that learning the Koran acts as a defense against >> violence. Being taught the koran at madrassa is negatively correlated with >> becoming radicalized. >> >> I believe you just pulled that fact out of your ass. > > And have you ever actually looked at the Koran? I doubt if you have and > you really should before insisting it is all nice and benign. Sam Harris in > his book "The End Of Faith" provides some interesting quotes: > > Open the Koran, which is perfect in its every syllable, and simply read it > with the eyes of faith. You will see how little compassion need be wasted > on those whom God himself is in the process of “mocking,” “cursing,” > “shaming,” “punishing,” “scourging,” “judging,” “burning,” “annihilating,” > “not forgiving,” and “not reprieving.” God, who is infinitely wise, has > cursed the infidels with their doubts. He prolongs their life and > prosperity so that they may continue heaping sin upon sin and all the more > richly deserve the torments that await them beyond the grave. In this > light, the people who died on September 11 were nothing more than fuel for > the eternal fires of God’s justice. To convey the relentlessness with which > unbelievers are vilified in the text of the Koran, I provide a long > compilation of quotations below, in order of their appearance in the text. > This is what the Creator of the universe apparently has on his mind (when > he is not fussing with gravitational constants and atomic weights): > > “It is the same whether or not you forewarn them [the unbelievers], they > will have no faith” (2:6). “God will mock them and keep them long in sin, > blundering blindly along” (2:15). A fire “whose fuel is men and stones” > awaits them (2:24). They will be “rewarded with disgrace in this world and > with grievous punishment on the Day of Resurrection” (2:85). “God’s curse > be upon the infidels!” (2:89). “They have incurred God’s most inexorable > wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits [them]” (2:90). “God is the enemy > of the unbelievers” (2:98). “The unbelievers among the People of the Book > [Christians and Jews], and the pagans, resent that any blessing should have > been sent down to you from your Lord” (2:105). “They shall be held up to > shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter” (2:114). “Those > to whom We [God] have given the Book, and who read it as it ought to be > read, truly believe in it; those that deny it shall assuredly be lost” > (2:122). “[We] shall let them live awhile, and then shall drag them to the > scourge of the Fire. Evil shall be their fate” (2:126). “The East and the > West are God’s. He guides whom He will to a straight path” (2:142). > > “Do not say that those slain in the cause of God are dead. They are alive, > but you are not aware of them” (2:154). “But the infidels who die > unbelievers shall incur the curse of God, the angels, and all men. Under it > they shall remain for ever; their punishment shall not be lightened, nor > shall they be reprieved” (2:162). “They shall sigh with remorse, but shall > never come out of the Fire” (2:168). “The unbelievers are like beasts > which, call out to them as one may, can hear nothing but a shout and a cry. > Deaf, dumb, and blind, they understand nothing” (2:172). “Theirs shall be a > woeful punishment” (2:175). “How steadfastly they seek the Fire! That is > because God has revealed the Book with truth; those that disagree about it > are in extreme schism” (2:176). “Slay them wherever you find them. Drive > them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than > carnage > It is a good idea to always check the original arabic for mistakes in translation, as well as compare several translations when the meaning seems morally or scientifically wrong. In 2:191:8 it speaks of oppression not idolatry. Please see: http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/191/ http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=191#(2:191:1) Samiya > . . . . f they attack you put them to the sword. Thus shall the > unbelievers be rewarded: but if they desist, God is forgiving and merciful. > Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God’s religion reigns > supreme. But if they desist, fight none except the evil-doers”(2:190–93). > “Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. But you may hate a > thing although it is good for you, and love a thing although it is bad for > you. God knows, but you know not” (2:216). “They will not cease to fight > against you until they force you to renounce your faith—if they are able. > But whoever of you recants and dies an unbeliever, his works shall come to > nothing in this world and in the world to come. Such men shall be the > tenants of Hell, wherein they shall abide forever. Those that have embraced > the Faith, and those that have fled their land and fought for the cause of > God, may hope for God’s mercy” (2:217–18). “God does not guide the > evil-doers” (2:258). “God does not guide the unbelievers” (2:264). “The > evil-doers shall have none to help them” (2:270). “God gives guidance to > whom He will” (2:272). > > Those that deny God’s revelations shall be sternly punished; God is mighty > and capable of revenge” (3:5). “As for the unbelievers, neither their > riches nor their children will in the least save them from God’s judgment. > They shall become fuel for the Fire” (3:10). “Say to the unbelievers: ‘You > shall be overthrown and driven into Hell—an evil resting place!’” (3:12). > “The only true faith in God’s sight is Islam. . . . He that denies God’s > revelations should know that swift is God’s reckoning” (3:19). “Let the > believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful—he > that does this has nothing to hope for from God—except in self-defense” > (3:28). “Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They > will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. > Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths, but greater > is the hatred which their breasts conceal” (3:118). “If you have suffered a > defeat, so did the enemy. We alternate these vicissitudes among mankind so > that God may know the true believers and choose martyrs from among you (God > does not love the evil-doers); and that God may test the faithful and > annihilate the infidels” (3:140). > > “Believers, if you yield to the infidels they will drag you back to > unbelief and you will return headlong to perdition. . . . We will put > terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. . . . The Fire shall be their > home” (3:149–51). “Believers, do not follow the example of the infidels, > who say of their brothers when they meet death abroad or in battle: ‘Had > they stayed with us they would not have died, nor would they have been > killed.’ God will cause them to regret their words. . . . If you should die > or be slain in the cause of God, God’s forgiveness and His mercy would > surely be better than all the riches they amass” (3:156). “Never think that > those who were slain in the cause of God are dead. They are alive, and well > provided for by their Lord; pleased with His gifts and rejoicing that those > they left behind, who have not yet joined them, have nothing to fear or to > regret; rejoicing in God’s grace and bounty. God will not deny the faithful > their reward” (3:169). “Let not the unbelievers think that We prolong their > days for their own good. We give them respite only so that they may commit > more grievous sins. Shameful punishment awaits them” (3:178). “Those that > suffered persecution for My sake and fought and were slain: I shall forgive > them their sins and admit them to gardens watered by running streams, as a > reward from God; God holds the richest recompense. Do not be deceived by > the fortunes of the unbelievers in the land. Their prosperity is brief. > Hell shall be their home, a dismal resting place” (3:195–96). > > “God has cursed them in their unbelief” (4:46). “God will not forgive > those who serve other gods besides Him; but He will forgive whom He will > for other sins. He that serves other gods besides God is guilty of a > heinous sin. . . . Consider those to whom a portion of the Scriptures was > given. They believe in idols and false gods and say of the infidels: ‘These > are better guided than the believers’” (4:50–51). “Those that deny Our > revelation We will burn in fire. No sooner will their skins be consumed > than We shall give them other skins, so that they may truly taste the > scourge. God is mighty and wise” (4:55–56). > > “Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels and those who were > given the Book before you, who have made of your religion a jest and a > pastime” (5:57). “That which is revealed to you from your Lord will surely > increase the wickedness and unbelief of many among them. We have stirred > among them enmity and hatred, which will endure till the Day of > Resurrection” (5:65). “God does not guide the unbelievers” (5:67). “That > which is revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase the wickedness > and unbelief of many among them. But do not grieve for the unbelievers” > (5:69). “You see many among them making friends with unbelievers. Evil is > that to which their souls prompt them. They have incurred the wrath of God > and shall endure eternal torment. . . . You will find that the most > implacable of men in their enmity to the faithful are the Jews and the > pagans, and that the nearest in affection to them are those who say: ‘We > are Christians’” (5:80–82). “[T]hose that disbelieve and deny Our > revelations shall become the inmates of Hell” (5:86). > > “[T]hey deny the truth when it is declared to them: but they shall learn > the consequences of their scorn” (6:5). “We had made them more powerful in > the land than yourselves [the Meccans], sent down for them abundant water > from the sky and gave them rivers that rolled at their feet. Yet because > they sinned We destroyed them all and raised up other generations after > them. If We sent down to you a Book inscribed on real parchment and they > touched it with their own hands, the unbelievers would still assert: ‘This > is but plain sorcery.’ They ask: ‘Why has no angel been sent down to him > [Muhammad]?’ If We had sent down an angel, their fate would have been > sealed and they would have never been reprieved” (6:5–8). “Who is more > wicked than the man who invents falsehoods about God or denies His > revelations?” (6:21). “Some of them listen to you. But We have cast veils > over their hearts and made them hard of hearing lest they understand your > words. They will believe in none of Our signs, even if they see them one > and all. When they come to argue with you the unbelievers say: ‘This is > nothing but old fictitious tales.’ They forbid it and depart from it. They > ruin none but themselves, though they do not perceive it. If you could see > them when they are set before the Fire! They will say: ‘Would that we could > return! Then we would not deny the revelations of our Lord and would be > true believers’ (6:23–27). “But if they were sent back, they would return > to that which they have been forbidden. They are liars all” (6:29). “Had > God pleased He would have given them guidance, one and all” (6:35). > > “Deaf and dumb are those that deny Our revelations: they blunder about in > darkness. God confounds whom He will, and guides to a straight path whom He > pleases.” (6:39) “[T]heir hearts were hardened, and Satan made their deeds > seem fair to them. And when they had clean forgotten Our admonition We > granted them all that they desired; but just as they were rejoicing in what > they were given, We suddenly smote them and they were plunged into utter > despair. Thus were the evil-doers annihilated. Praise be to God, Lord of > the Universe!” (6:43–45). “[T]hose that deny Our revelations shall be > punished for their misdeeds” (6:49). “Such are those that are damned by > their own sins. They shall drink scalding water and be sternly punished for > their unbelief” (6:70). “Could you but see the wrongdoers when death > overwhelms them! With hands out-stretched, the angels will say: ‘Yield up > your souls. You shall be rewarded with the scourge of shame this day, for > you have said of God what is untrue and scorned His revelations” (6:93). > > “Avoid the pagans. Had God pleased, they would not have worshipped idols. > . . . We will turn away their hearts and eyes from the Truth since they > refused to believe in it at first. We will let them blunder about in their > wrongdoing. If We sent the angels down to them, and caused the dead to > speak to them, . . . and ranged all things in front of them, they would > still not believe, unless God willed otherwise. . . . Thus have We assigned > for every prophet an enemy: the devils among men and jinn, who inspire each > other with vain and varnished false- hoods. But had your Lord pleased, they > would not have done so. Therefore leave them to their own inventions, so > that the hearts of those who have no faith in the life to come may be > inclined to what they say and, being pleased, persist in their sinful ways” > (6:107–12). “The devils will teach their votaries to argue with you. If you > obey them you shall yourselves become idolaters. . . . God will humiliate > the transgressors and mete out to them a grievous punishment for their > scheming” (6:121–25). “If God wills to guide a man, He opens his bosom to > Islam. But if he pleases to confound him, He makes his bosom small and > narrow as though he were climbing up to heaven. Thus shall God lay the > scourge on the unbelievers” (6:125). > > Yes, the Bible contains its own sadistic lunacy—but the above quotations > can be fairly said to convey the central message of the Qur’an—and of Islam > at nearly every moment in its history. The Qur’an does not contain anything > like a Sermon on the Mount. Nor is it a vast and self-contradictory book > like the Old Testament, in which whole sections (like Leviticus and > Deuteronomy) can be easily ignored and forgotten. The result is a unified > message of triumphalism, otherworldliness, and religious hatred that has > become a problem for the entire world. And the world still waits for > moderate Muslims to speak honestly about it. > > John K Clark > > > > > > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
