meekerdb wrote:
On 3/23/2015 6:23 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote:
meekerdb wrote:
On 3/23/2015 5:58 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote:
meekerdb wrote:
On 3/23/2015 4:10 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote:
(if you are concerned that /some/ notion of time is essential,
then it needs only that time be encoded in the states in some way.
No external time parameter is needed. See Julian Barbour's book
/The End of Time/)
Right. It's only order that it needed. But if this view is to be
taken as fundamental then it requires that there be some overlap
between states in order to define the sequence. Otherwise there's
no inherent way to order them without assuming some known dynamics,
2nd law, etc.
I am not sure I fully grasp what you mean by 'some overlap between
states'. If you follow Barbour's idea then each state is complete
within itself -- containing a 'time capsule' that gives the illusion
of the passage of time. There need be no ordered sequence at all
between states -- at least if I remember Barbour correctly.
It's been a long time since I read Barbour, but I believe he uses the
idea that state N+1 contains information from N, i.e.
records/history. So, although the state is complete in itself, in
terms of information this is a kind of "overlap". Then hypothesizing
something like the second law provides an ordering.
It may be a more radical idea than that Barbour proposed, but if you
take this to its obvious conclusion, then there need be no connection
between the states whatsoever. The illusion of 'time', and the laws by
which one might mark the passage of time, are all encoded within each
individual state; there need be no connection with other states, and
certainly no notion of progression from state N-1 to N, and thence to
N+1.
Why isn't the cumulative inclusion of information (increased entropy) an
ordering principle? What more could you ask for to order discrete states?
It is a perfectly good ordering system. But my point was that we do not
even need distinct states that need to be ordered.
Bruce
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