Bruno wrote. *That is capitalism, or equivalent. I don't use capitalism is the Marxist sense, but in the sense of european liberalism (liberal = right, in europa). The idea is that the state is limited in power as much as possible. Ideally, it might even disappear, or become itself competitive by allowing any human to choose the state, real or virtual, to live in (= to pay tax for)*.
Capitalism (in Adam Smith's sense?) means FOr Profit, Growth, competition, etc. Liberalism comes from your langiage (Liberte' - freedom). JM On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 12:22 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > > On 19 Sep 2015, at 21:16, John Mikes wrote: > > Bruno, > even before (your?) prohibition-S there was some capitalistic system in > the US, > leading to inequality and injustice in the economical status of the > population. > I am not talking Marxism. > The diverse prohibition-S (and other installments) just made it worse. > The basic question is *"FREEDOM" *- in my terms: *no restrictions of > one's acting **decisions AS LONG as it doesnot hurt the 'freedom' of > others.* > > > > That is capitalism, or equivalent. I don't use capitalism is the Marxist > sense, but in the sense of european liberalism (liberal = right, in > europa). The idea is that the state is limited in power as much as > possible. Ideally, it might even disappear, or become itself competitive by > allowing any human to choose the state, real or virtual, to live in (= to > pay tax for). > > > > Within such all subchapters are viable. > > > We might agree, and have only vocabulary problem. If you defend freedom, > we are on the same political side. > > > > > (About 'offer/demand': how local would you go with it? the neighbor's > demand may be high and drives up prices, while a local overproduction is > not even paying for > susistence of the workers. Global is not practical.) > > > Global is new, and we have to adapt and revise many things. But that > cannot be enforced: it needs good education and less lies. > > Prohibition must be stopped, like any violent crimes, but as you say, it > is not the deeper culprit, which is 1500 years of authoritative argument in > the most fundamental human science, itself supprted in part by billions > years of nature's brainwashing. We are too much mammals, we can learn from > the invertebrates. > > Let each of us do what is possible. The necessary will care of itself. > > Bruno > > > > > JM > > On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 3:33 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > >> >> On 18 Sep 2015, at 21:37, John Mikes wrote: >> >> Bruno: >> could you please define* "free market"* (system?) into YOUR terms? >> Free, but not free indeed, as you wrote: >> >> "*only with a regulating system making it not breaking some laws,... "* >> >> >> >> Basically that was the state in the US before prohibition. >> >> Free market means free contract between adults, and laws must ensure the >> respect of the contracts, not the content of the contract. >> >> >> >> where could you STOP the list of those 'laws'? >> >> >> Laws must evolve, jurisprudence, etc. I am OK with punishing people doing >> false advertisement in the matter of health. >> >> I would like we avoid making something illegal because it cures some >> important disease, and of course is a threat for those doing money on that >> disease, like today with cannabis and cancer to take a notorious example. I >> think that the illegality of cannabis is a crime against humanity, given >> that the danger have been debunked, and the benefits have been proved (in >> the sense of having been able to be repeated in all laboratories which are >> not dependent of a big lucrative organization. >> >> >> >> >> Is a 'regulating system a power? >> >> >> Like the immune system in biological organism. It is a sort of power, OK. >> >> >> >> (I had a similar problem with identifying "free speech"- not only by the >> Supremes' >> "MONEY"definition). If market is free, it has a goal: P RO F I T Imaking. >> It would >> undergo the rules of offer and demand, leading to inequality. >> >> >> That is why a regulating system is very important: it verifies if the law >> of offer and demand is respected. It prevents as much as possible genuine >> competition. >> >> >> >> The word "free"is ambigious and hard to control. Free travel? we see it >> in EU. >> And so on. >> >> >> I agree with you. "free" designates often plausible "protagorean virtue", >> which in machine theology can be shown to be destroyed when asserted on >> people. That is the case with free-thinking, which leads to more hidden >> dogma, or free-exam, etc. >> But I am not sure for free-market, which just means that the state does >> not intervene in the content of what is sold, with few exceptions (perhaps) >> like radioactive material, or anything which is known to be problematic >> (meaning the proof of the problem exist and are not political propaganda). >> If you study the case of cannabis, all statements on its danger comes from >> paper which have not been made available to the public, and was >> contradicted by all papers available to the public. The cannabis set-up was >> gross, immense, obvious, and nobody was failed, except the general public >> and the physicians. Many doctor, askd to vote for the inegality of >> marijuana, said that they were not aware that marijuana was cannabis, at >> that time, and took some time to realize the maneuver. We had to wait 10 >> years before the paper by Nahas gave the protocols used to prove that >> cannabis demolish brain cells, and indeed, now we have them, and it is just >> ridiculous (the rabbit were smoking ten joints simultaneously for seven >> days 24/24, and the neurons have been shown since dying from asphyxia, just >> to give one example among many). >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> John Mikes >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> On 10 Sep 2015, at 23:17, John Mikes wrote: >>> >>> Excellent historical analysis, Smitra. Thanks. I was a contemporary >>> witness >>> during my adult years (40s to 70s) and vouch for your ideas. >>> Bruno, however, picked prohibitionism as the main (sole?) culprit what >>> does not match my conclusions. It was part of it, for sure. >>> >>> >>> I think I agree with all what Saibal said, but I believe that nothing >>> can progress in any direction as long as prohibitionism exist. It might be >>> that stopping prohibition is not enough, but it is a necessary step. It is >>> not that difficult, as the lies exists only since 75 years. It is another >>> matter about theology (1500 years of lies), and matter (billions years of >>> lies). >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I found as main culprit the dissatisfaction of the overwhelming majority >>> of people with their lives as slaves in a capitalistic system to work for >>> less than what they may have produced. >>> >>> >>> Well, the term "capitalism" is ambiguous. I am all for the free market, >>> but only with a regulating system making it not breaking some laws, like >>> defamation of products and misinformation of the public. We must avoid >>> mafia-like merchandising of fears, diseases and wars. Only a few minority >>> makes big benefits, but it go with a lot of suffering. >>> >>> >>> >>> Also the 'ownership' claim of Nature, including her products, beyond the >>> effort the claimant has put into getting them, plus an ownership of the so >>> called law-enforcement forces to suppress any opposition - making the >>> advanced society an *economical inequality* of haves and have-nots, the >>> latter being forced to work FOR the former for their mere survival. >>> >>> >>> Free-market is a win-win strategy. The "capitalism" of today is >>> everything but free-market. The rich get enrieced by stealing the money of >>> the less rich. It is not free-market, it is organized banditism. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Governments are exponents of the rich and powerful and force the >>> have-nots into their armies to die in wars for the interest of the wealthy. >>> It is called patriotism. The exploited slaves (dead, injured casualties of >>> wars) of the system are called heros. >>> >>> Just to vent off >>> >>> >>> I agree with you, but I think that it is not the system which is faulty, >>> but a well prepared perversion of the system, that the founders of America >>> were quite aware of the possibility. >>> >>> They did not find a way to solve the problem, except by the US >>> Constitution, which has been indeed eroded more and more (and is virtually >>> dead with the NDAA 2012, actually). >>> >>> It is not a question of politics: it is a question of good and bad >>> people. The liars, the lied which parrots, and the lied which lives the >>> lies. >>> >>> The applied human science, except for laws and democracy (in principle) >>> is still governed by the "the boss is right" principle. People are still >>> discouraged to make the thinking and take the responsibility. Only in >>> movies. >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> John Mikes >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:36 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On 31 Aug 2015, at 16:52, smitra wrote: >>>> >>>> The real problem i.m.o. is that big powers tend to have a big inertia, >>>>> it takes them a long time to see that the World has changed and that they >>>>> need to focus on other issues than they currently are engaged with. In >>>>> some >>>>> cases that can lead to escalation of a pointless conflict that has its >>>>> roots in past issues that are no longer relevant, as is the case with the >>>>> war on drugs. And that then can cause a lot of harm. >>>>> >>>>> But I think the general issue is this huge inertia. So, when Gorbachov >>>>> was in power and he was ready to deal seriously with the West, it took us >>>>> a >>>>> very long time to engage with him. A point on which we never engaged with >>>>> the Soviets in a constructive way was Afghanistan. >>>>> >>>>> The Soviets were willing to withdraw from Afghanistan, even before >>>>> Gorbachov came to power, but on certain conditions like leaving behind a >>>>> stable government. We never wanted to engage with the Soviets on that, >>>>> because of pur mondset that the root of all evil was communism, and the >>>>> Soviets were just talking bullshit about our allies there, the Jihadists. >>>>> >>>>> Them posing a threat to the World? that to us was just ridiculous. We >>>>> knew for sure that with the Soviets gone out of Afghanistan, their >>>>> communist puppet government dismantled, the Afghan population would be >>>>> able >>>>> to form a democratic state. We were so sure about this that we never >>>>> critically analyzed all the hidden assumptions made here. >>>>> >>>>> It later turned out that we were wrong and that the Soviets were >>>>> right, not in their general approach but about seeing the threat of >>>>> Jihadism that we helped to fuel. Also they were right about the dangers of >>>>> having failed states. Our ideology at the time was that a failed state >>>>> would quickly get itself organized into a flourishing democracy if you >>>>> could only keep the evil communists out. >>>>> >>>>> Another fallout of this was that Gorbachov's political position was >>>>> weakened in the Soviet Union, which made his nationalist opposition who >>>>> were critical of the West politically stronger. When Yeltsin took over he >>>>> had to deal with an economically weak Russia while in the background there >>>>> were forces lurking who were extremely critical of the West. In any >>>>> country >>>>> you'll have the opposition that tends to question the government's policy >>>>> especially if things are not going well economically and especially when >>>>> there has been a recent radical change. In the years after the collapse of >>>>> communism that move was democratization, liberalization of the economy >>>>> etc. >>>>> etc. >>>>> >>>>> It's easy for us to say that the Russians who were critical at the >>>>> time were stupid, just look at the opposition in the US against a >>>>> universal >>>>> health care system. Now, if we could turn back the clock and had dealt >>>>> with >>>>> Afghanistan differently, then the outcome of that might not just have >>>>> prevented the rise of international Jihadism, you would also have had the >>>>> pro-Western reformists in Russia to be in a politically far stronger >>>>> position. Likely you would not have had Putin in power today, or Putin may >>>>> not have become that anti-Western (he wasn't when came into power). >>>>> >>>>> Another thing is that we would have improved the UN Security Council >>>>> System to deal with complex problems. As it currently functions, the UNSC >>>>> is a panel of prosecutors who are the World's policemen, prosecutor, jury >>>>> and judge at the same time without a requirement for members to recuse >>>>> themselves when they are involved. >>>>> >>>>> The system works fine in emergency situations, like when Iraq invaded >>>>> Kuwait, just like a police can intervene effectively when there is a bank >>>>> robbery going on. But when the emergency situation is dealt with, we all >>>>> know that you need a proper justice system to deal with the problem on the >>>>> longer term. We know that what cannot work is a system where the local >>>>> police can have a caucus with other police officers from neighboring >>>>> areas >>>>> to deal with that. Even if you assume that police officers can be 100% >>>>> objective, you would still not have much faith in a system where the >>>>> police >>>>> officers could be the prosecutors juries, judges, appeals judges and >>>>> Supreme Court judges all at the same time. >>>>> >>>>> This i.m.o. is the reason why Iraq was invaded. Iraq under Saddam >>>>> Hussein (supported by both superpowers in the 1980s) could never prove >>>>> that >>>>> it had no WMD within the current system once some prosecutors decided to >>>>> throw the book at him. >>>>> >>>>> Had instead the Western powers thought critically about how to improve >>>>> the international institutions instead of seeing the collapse of the >>>>> Soviet >>>>> Union as a big gain in their power within the current system, the UNSC >>>>> could have been reformed. You can think of a system where the UNSC >>>>> continues to exist in its present form but that it creates a new >>>>> institution where judges rule on contentious fundings of facts. The UNSC >>>>> could then have referred difficult dossiers like the Iraq WMD case, Iran's >>>>> nuclear program etc. to such an institution where decisions are made on >>>>> the >>>>> basis of real evidence instead of political rhetoric. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I think I agree with your analysis, but I think there is much more, >>>> which is the disparition/erosion of the separation of power, which is part >>>> of the making of the rhetoric. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> So, I put most of the blame of the current situation on the West's >>>>> failures to just think about the long term during the late stages of the >>>>> Cold War. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As long as prohibitionist are not all in jail, or amnestied perhaps, >>>> some corporatism will will continue to make huge profits in diseases and >>>> war selling. >>>> >>>> The war on terror is fake, because if that was genuine, the most urgent >>>> thing which would have been done is to stop prohibition, which is the fuel, >>>> even the main engine of international crimes and terrorism, and it is know >>>> today that whatever drug is prohibited, the consumption of it is multiplied >>>> by a large factor (which is normal as you offer the market to the >>>> criminals). >>>> >>>> I mean that it is not just our incompetence, there is a part of >>>> unwillingness. We tolerate the lies on important things, like on cancers, >>>> indeed we tolerate that people think for us about what is good or bad to >>>> us, but that's contradict already the intent of most of the founders of >>>> America. >>>> >>>> As long as prohibitionism is not abolished, I think we must remain >>>> skeptical about any *official* theory by default. Liars lie rarely only >>>> once. Prohibition rotten everything. International prohibition can only >>>> lead to international chaos, mafia wars, well disguised. >>>> >>>> Bruno >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Saibal >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 30-08-2015 22:34, meekerdb wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 8/30/2015 10:50 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> - the governments know that prohibition is the main fuel of >>>>>>> criminality and terrorism. >>>>>>> >>>>>> So Muslims flew planes into buildings government (which one?) >>>>>> prohibited something (what?). >>>>>> Brent >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>> everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list >>>>>> [1]. >>>>>> For more options, visit 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