Bruno wrote: "... related to the Aristotelian idea that what we experience/see/measure is what is real. ..." I wanted to raise the 'scientific doubt' about "REAL". (An 'idea' cannot be REAL). We may accept it as a condition to work on, make 'science' out of it, but I doubt if anybody has an acceptable (workable) version of REALITY? Your text supports my fundamental tenet(s) in more than one way.
We also do not know what to call "FACTS"? (3p??) (Pardon my agnosticism!) I wanted to raise the 'idea' that human formulations about non-human ways of communbication/thinking may be anthropo-centric/morphic at best. An animal thinks differently from a human, a plant develops response-like reply movements (incl. growth) a microbe does - I wish I knew what. Even a rock undergoes 'giving-in' to forces what we could list as a 'reply'. We 'know' pretty little about the Entirety and build out of that fraction our entire world as an 'experienced fact-based reality;. I think we agreed on such ideas many times. Regards John Mikes On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 9:56 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > Hello John, > > > On 20 Sep 2016, at 21:02, John Mikes wrote: > > Dear Bruno, > we are still in the anthropocentric/anthropomorphic failure to equate > EVERYTHING with our humanbased experience. > > > > I am not sure, although what you say might be related to the Aristotelian > idea that what we experience/see/measure is what is real. > But the history of science shows that very often big progress comes when > people guess that there is something behind what we see and behind the > human based experience we live, and which is indeed plausibly only a > symptom of what we do not know. > > Mathematics, as a science, is (slowly) born from the doubt with respect to > Aristotle theology. Then, when it worlks, we tend to forget the origin, or > to dismiss it for some reason (usually related to power). > > Recently I have discovered that even the modern mathematical logic is born > from theological problems, notably how to get rigorous in that field. > Again, once the science is born, there has been professionalization > pressures to dismiss the original problems and motivations. > > > > Organisms without brain-tissue do not exercise brain-functions as we THINK > they do occur in our 'head' (guts?) > > > In which theory? With mechanism, all entities think in basically the same > way. And all entities which introspect eneough know that even the head and > the neurons are "in our head" (note the pun). I mean that neuron are good > local approximations of something, but is not the "real" thing. > > > > and do not develop similar thoughts to us - the ways we try to understand > our own thinking through neurons(?). > > > > That is why we submit theories and abandon them when they do not work. And > if they work, no serious/honest scientists will ever claim that they are > true. > > We can't decide to not build theories under the pretext they are biased by > our neurons and experiences. It is only by making our theories precise > enough to be REFUTED that we can learn and discover that we are missing > something. > > We never known the 3p truth as such, but can only learn by building > theories and confronting them with facts and other theories. > > Bruno > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 11:19 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > >> >> On 16 Sep 2016, at 23:11, Jason Resch wrote: >> >> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3792036/Do-trees-brains.html >> >> >> It is my feeling too, and there are many evidences for some form of >> thought, and I read (where?) that even at the molecular level, there are >> some biochemical similarity with animal's neuron at the extremity of some >> roots. >> >> Now it is hard to conclude anything at this stage, but the idea is cute, >> and, as I said sometimes, it is less ethically grave to attribute >> consciousness wrongly than to dismiss consciousness wrongly. >> >> A tree, to another tree: ---- do you think animals can think? >> --- What? No! they are too much agitated for that! >> >> >> Bruno >> >> >> Jason >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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