On 6/24/2017 11:25 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote:
On 24/06/2017 8:36 pm, Russell Standish wrote:
On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 06:29:54PM +1000, Bruce Kellett wrote:
On 24/06/2017 5:23 pm, Russell Standish wrote:

OK, it was possibly the case that you gave arguments earlier in the
book. But I was going on the basis of the Appendix "Derivation of
Quantum postulates".

But the problems only begin with the assumption of a probabilistic
model. Psi(t) is the set of possibilities consistent with what is
known at time t. But how do you limit this set? At the moment, I
could go to the pub for a drink, could open a bottle of wine at
home, stroke the cat, turn on the telly, talk to my wife, etc,
etc,..... The possibilities consistent with what is known at this
time is not a well defined set, or limited in any way.
The everything is the set of all infinite length strings, each of
which describes a universe to infinite detail. Some of these strings
will describe universes compatible with our current observer moment -
an infinite number even, as the information content of our OM is
finite. Others will not. It is a well defined subset of the everything.

What does "compatible" mean? Is this linked to our current moment by law-like behaviour, or just any any string which happens, by chance to contain our present moment? If the latter (and also in compete generality, given your definitions), then my characterization of the list of possibilities is correct, and the string could contain any future indeed. If the former, how do you know that there is not just a single string that contains the only law-like continuation of your present state?

Because you then go on to define projection operators in terms of a
sum over the members of this set of possible outcomes. That is
meaningless unless you are already assuming the the outcomes are
just possible results for a well-defined measurement, and that this
measurement process can be defined in a linear vector space.

Summation of the projection operators is defined in equation D.1 for
disjoint observations a and b (ie where it is impossible to observe a
and b simultaneously). Linearity is not assumed at this point.

That is where you have an enormous problem, following on from the previous point that you have not limited the possible continuations in any way. You define a projection as occurring when the observer applies an operator A (again undefined and unlimited) to the observer moment, which operator divides it into a discrete set of outcomes, psi_a. Note that 'a' is only an index, not an eigenvalue or any such. Note that you explicitly state that \P_{a} is not assumed linear at this point. (I use \P as a notation for your script P.) You then *define* addition for two distinct outcomes a =/= b as:

    \P_{a} psi  + \P_{b} psi = \P_{a,b} psi.


There's a paper (actually several) by Sorkin which develops QM from a measure on histories point of view that starts by the contrary of the above equation; http://arXiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9401003v2

/The additivity of classical probabilities is only the first in a//
//hierarchy of possible sum-rules, each of which implies its succes-//
//sor. The first and most restrictive sum-rule of the hierarchy yields//
//measure-theory in the Kolmogorov sense, which physically is appro-//
//priate for the description of stochastic processes such as Brownian//
//motion. The next weaker sum-rule defines a generalized measure//
//theory which includes quantum mechanics as a special case. The//
//fact that quantum probabilities can be expressed “as the squares//
//of quantum amplitudes” is thus derived in a natural manner, and//
//a series of natural generalizations of the quantum formalism is de-//
//lineated. Conversely, the mathematical sense in which classical//
//physics is a special case of quantum physics is clarified. The present//
//paper presents these relationships in the context of a “realistic” in-//
//terpretation of quantum mechanics.

/Brent/
/

This is, of course meaningless if psi_a is 'taking the dog for a walk,' and psi_b is 'stroking the cat'. You can define a '+' sign as anything you like, but such a definition does not ensure that the result has any meaning -- as in my example, which follows completely logically from the definitions that you make.

It is clear that your are trying to introduce the concept of a quantum superposition by the back door, without doing any work, and relying on the inherent ambiguity in the '+' operation. If you have nothing but classical outcomes from your observer moment psi(t), then you cannot simply add these outcomes as if they were separate eigenfunctions of a quantum operator. There are no such things as superpositions in classical physics.

Sorry, but the whole procedure is nonsense on stilts. It does not get any better from then on in, but I refrain from analysing further -- my blood pressure will not stand it!

Bruce




Another problem occurs further down when you seem to have complex
numbers of observers observing an observer moment. Why you should
have more than one observer for any observer moment is a mystery yet
to be solved.
It's more a measure over observer moments. In a branching multiverse,
not all observer moments are equally likely, but one would expect
across a branching point, measure should be conserved.

Why the measure is complex, not real is more tricky. With the
everything, subsets naturally induce a real valued measure. But we do
know that complex measures are more general, and we need a good reason
not to choose the most general. But complex measures are not the most
general. I do say "more general division algebras cannot support
equations of the form (D.7)", but I confess, I'm still not completely
happy with that line.

But then you go on, in eq. B8 to define the inner
product in terms of the probability function. But you have merely
multiplied together two expansions in terms of projections over
possible outcomes -- assuming that there is a linear span over the
space in the process. This gives the Born rule, sure, because you
have built it into your derivation of the inner product.

By the time we get to equation D.8, we have proved that the set of
observer moments is a vector space, so yes, this construction is
allowed. We are entitled to define any real-valued bilinear operator on
that space and call it an inner product.

By using that particular inner product, you get the Born rule in the
usual form. If we'd chosen another, we'd have a different expression
that is equivalent to the Born rule.

So you know about QM from the start, and devise a strategy to get
you there. One of the problems that many-worlders face in their
attempts to derive the Born rule from within MWI is that they cannot
independently justify a probabilistic model.
Yes, but I don't start with the MWI (namely, I don't start with a
Hilbert space and unitary equation of motion - ie Schroedinger's
equation). I start with evolution in a generic multiverse.
Why a multiverse? You no doubt argue for it elsewhere, but that is
not apparent in your quantum derivation.

Yes - of course. The whole book is premised on it.

And I do not understand why the most general equation for computing
psi as a function  of time is a first order differential equation.
The equation could clearly be non-linear in psi -- such things have
been postulated after all, as in general relativity and GRW for
instance.

A first order differential equation needn't be linear. Linearity comes
from assuming that the laws of physics don't change every time you
observe something, more specifically the solutions ψ_α are also solutions.

A higher order equation can be transformed into a first order equation
by adding new variables - a trick commonly done in dynamical systems theory.

Perhaps there's an implicit assumption that the evolution should be
Markovian. I think one could make a convincing case that it should be,
but perhaps that assumption needs to be made explicit.

Besides, you do not show that the operator H is the Hamiltonian and
the energy operator. You do not derive the basic commutation
relations between position and momentum operators -- a relation that
is central to the whole of QM.

The commutation relations between x and i∂/∂x follow
mechanically. That i∂/∂x can be identified with p (modulo a constant
multiplier) is the correspondence principle, which I discuss on page
120. Vic Stenger has an argument for it, based on Noether's theorem.

If you have a
probabilistic model in 3 or more dimensions, Gleason's theorem tells
you that the Born rule is the only consistent model for
probabilities.
My arguments go through in fewer than 3 dimensions as well, AFAIK,
although that would a relatively uninteresting world - very black and
white :). Which is why I suspect it is independent of Gleason.

But you have to say why you want a probabilistic
interpretation in the first place. Deutsch's attempts founder on the
fact that he has to assume that small amplitudes have small
probabilities, even to get started, so his argument is manifestly
circular.

Yes - I think the problem with those approaches is that they start
with a Hilbert space and unitary equation of motion (ie a classic
MWI), and then fail to generate the Born rule because there is no
observer in their mechanics.

As I said, you build a probabilistic model in at the start, so
Gleason's theorem is going to get you the Born rule automatically.
Or if you don't assume Gleason, you have an equivalent result by
another route. Assuming a probabilistic model is a very powerful
starting point......
Sure - but it is necessary. If evolution did not work the way it did,
we could only ever be Boltzmann brains, isolated observers existing
fleetingly, barely having time to consider what to have for lunch, let
alone figuring out the meaning of the universe. Fortunately for us,
evolution does work to generate complex worlds from simple beginnings,
meaning an evolved world is overwhelming more likely to occur in the
Multiverse of Everything than Boltzmann brain existences.
Why do you have to have evolution?
My 2 sentence summary is as above. If you want a more detailed
portrayal, read my book :).

It seems to me that you are
allowing enough empirical science to creep into your deliberations
to give you the results you want.
For guidance, perhaps, but I don't think I've built a just-so story here.

I don't think Boltzmann brains are
the only alternative to evolution.
The only alternative to it arising through an irreversible process is
de novo creation.

Evolution could work in all sorts
of different ways -- such as Lamarkianism, etc. The only reasons we
rule these out are empirical.
So? - I make no comment on the central dogma of biology.

Similarly, the only reason for going
to quantum mechanics is solidly empirical -- classical physics just
does not work all the way down. So one will never be able to derive
quantum mechanics from general, non-empirical considerations. It is
just too weird for that!

If true, then point to which assumption I use that is too weird.


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