On 20 Nov 2017, at 20:40, [email protected] wrote:
On Monday, November 20, 2017 at 6:56:52 AM UTC-7, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 18 Nov 2017, at 21:32, [email protected] wrote:
On Saturday, November 18, 2017 at 1:17:25 PM UTC-7, Brent wrote:
On 11/18/2017 8:58 AM, John Clark wrote:
> I think "must" is unwarranted, certainly in the case of
the MWI. Rather, it ASSUMES all possible measurements must be
realized in some world. I see no reason for this assumption
other than an insistence to fully reify the wf in order to avoid
"collapse".
The MWI people don't have to assume anything because there is
absolutely nothing in t he Schrodinger Wave E quation
about collapsing, its the Copenhagen people who have to assume
that somehow it does.
It's not just an assumption. It's an observation. The SE alone
didn't explain the observation, hence the additional ideas.
Brent
Moreover, MWI DOES make additional assumptions, as its name
indicates, based on the assumption that all possible measurements
MUST be measured, in this case in other worlds.
That is not an assumption. It is the quasi-literal reading of the
waves. It is Copenhagen who added an assumption, basically the
assumption that the wave does not apply to the observer: they
assumed QM was wrong for the macroscopic world (Bohr) or for the
conscious mind (Wigner, von Neumann) depending where you put the cut.
CMIIAW, but I see it, the postulates tell us the possible results of
measurements. They don't assert that every possible measurement will
be realized.
What do you mean by realize? Without collapse, the measurement are
described by the quantum laws. An observer along a superposition up +
down, *is* the same state as the observer along up superposed with the
observer down, if he look in the {up + down, up - down} basis, "he"
will see he is in up+down, but if he looks in the {up down} basis; the
observer consciousness differentiate, in his first person perspective,
but the solution of the wave describes the two outcomes realized from
the point of view of each observer. You can't decide to make one of
them into a zombie.
So I see an additional assumption in the MWI. AG
I disagree, and Everett would disagree. I am aware most people claims
Everett and Copenhagen are differet intepretations, but from a
metamathematical obvious view: Everett and Copenhagen are different
theories. Everett is the SWE, and Copenhagen is SWE + collapse. We
might accept that Everett theory has not yet justify all aspects of
what could be the physical reality (and provably so if we assume
digital mechanism in cognitive science), but, to be short, it is less
crazy than any theory making the collapse into a physical phenomenon.
I reject this hypothesis. What I do concede is that in the case of
the Multiverse of String Theory, if time is infinite and the
possible universes finite -- 10^500 -- all possible universes will
be, or have been, realized. AG
OK, but that is not Everett-Deustch "multiverse" (relative state,
many-worlds, etc.).
Too much parsing! I was trying to explain that the Multiverse of
String Theory is manifestly *different* from the Many Worlds of the
MWI. AG
Yes. you are right on this. In string theory with collapse (if this
could even make sense), you have 10^500 physical realities. In string
theory without collapse, you have (10^500 * Infinity) physical
realities, at first sight (with mechanism they are just "coherent
dreams" (sigma_1 true sentences seen in the Bp & ~Bf mode) by Numbers).
Bruno
Bruno
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