> On 30 Jun 2018, at 01:27, John Clark <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 4:57 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>
> > If “0 things exist” is true, I don’t see how “0 things exist” can exist.
>
> If if “0 things exist” is true then “0 things exist” exists,
That does not follow. If the universe is empty, i.e. u = { }, that does not
entail u = {{ }}, unless you implicit theory is closed for set theoretical
reflexion.
> so if its true then it's not true. If its not true then something exists. And
> from that we can conclude that something is rotten in the state of Denmark ,
> or rather in the sate of Nothing.
So you agree with Jason that the “nothing theory” is inconsistent? I am not
sure it is inconsistent, but I am sure it is false.
>
> > It is clear that the theory “nothing exist” is refuted by anyone claiming
> to believe that theory.
>
> There is no doubt something exists everybody believes that its true, the
> existential question is why its true.
We need to assume one universal system. We cannot drive the existence of a
universal system without assuming some universal system. That can be proved to
be impossible. So we will never know why existence has to be true, although we
can explain all the mode of existence once we assume elementary arithmetic
(which is indeed a natural universal system to start from, although any other
would do the job).
>
> > It can be true, but it does not need to be expressed to be true.
>
> Expressed? I don't see what communicating something to others has to do with
> it unless you think a fact doesn't exist unless somebody knows it. And
> besides, you seemed to need to express it because you just did.
Sure, but when the assumption is that nothing exists, it is automatically made
wrong if expressed, but it is not automatically inconsistent if not expressed.
In fact, only a theory can be inconsistent or false.
>
> > I think we should distinguish well between “being true” and existence.
> If there is a difference between “being true” and existence then either:
>
> 1) Some things are true but don't exist. In other words some things are
> logically consistent but are self contained and have nothing to do with
> physics or physical reality in general.
Assuming Aristotle's theology. Better to be agnostic on this when working on
the mind-body problem,
> Or in still other words some mathematical stories are fictional and much of
> modern abstract mathematics has no deeper meaning than a Harry Potter novel
> and the fanfiction stories that spawn off from it.
That is inconsistent with mechanism, but also pretty ridiculous. If 1+1 = 2 is
fiction, then, even with materialism or physicalism, all laws of physics are
fictions too, as they all assume at least RA, and actually much more.
>
> 2) Some things exist but aren't true. In other words paradoxes can actually
> exist and all Reductio ad absurdum proofs are rendered invalid.
If the paradox is a contradiction, all proofs are rendered invalid, absolutely
all proofs.
Your expression “paradox exist” is of course ambiguous. I assume you mean that
a physical contradiction exist.
In logic, logicians have tools to delineate precisely the difference between
truth and existence. Existence os when an existential proposition is true, and
that notion is always relative to some theory and its (standard or not)
model(s).
Bruno
>
> John K Clark
>
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