> On 4 Jul 2018, at 10:57, 'scerir' via Everything List
> <everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>> Il 4 luglio 2018 alle 2.37 agrayson2...@gmail.com ha scritto:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 1:21:18 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>>> On 23 Jun 2018, at 00:13, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, June 22, 2018 at 10:13:37 AM UTC, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>>> On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 6:48:53 PM UTC-5, agrays...@gmail.com <>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 11:18:25 PM UTC, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>>> The emergent nuclear interaction occurs on a time scale of 10^{-22}seconds.
>>> The superposition of a decayed and nondecayed nucleus occurs in that time
>>> before decoherence.
>>>
>>> Is that calculated / postulated if the radioactive source interacts with
>>> its environment? Can't it be isolated for a longer duration? If so, what
>>> does that imply about being in the pure states mentioned above? AG
>>>
>>> Quantum physics experiments on nonlocality are done usually with optical
>>> and IR energy photons. The reason is that techniques exist for making these
>>> sort of measurements and materials are such that one can pass photons
>>> through beam splitters or hold photons in entanglements in mirrored
>>> cavities and the rest. At higher energy up into the X-ray domain such
>>> physics becomes very difficult. At intermediate energy where you have
>>> nuclear physics of nucleons and mesons and further at higher energy of
>>> elementary particles things become impossible. This is why in QFT there are
>>> procedures for constructing operators that have nontrivial commutations on
>>> and in the light cone so nonlocal physics does not intrude into
>>> phenomenology. Such physics is relevant on a tiny scale compared to the
>>> geometry of your detectors.
>>>
>>> LC
>>>
>>> I've been struggling lately with how to interpret a superposition of states
>>> when it is ostensibly unintelligible, e.g., a cat alive and dead
>>> simultaneously, or a radioactive source decayed and undecayed
>>> simultaneously. If we go back to the vector space consisting of those
>>> "little pointing things", it follows that any vector which is a sum of
>>> other vectors, simultaneously shares the properties of the components in
>>> its sum. This is simple and obvious. I therefore surmise that since a
>>> Hilbert space is a linear vector space, this interpretation took hold as a
>>> natural interpretation of superpositions in quantum mechanics, and led to
>>> Schroedinger's cat paradox. I don't accept the explanation of decoherence
>>> theory, that we never see these unintelligible superpositions because of
>>> virtually instantaneous entanglements with the environment. Decoherence
>>> doesn't explain why certain bases are stable; others not, even though,
>>> apriori, all bases in a linear vector space are equivalent. These
>>> considerations lead me to the conclusion that a quantum superposition of
>>> states is just a calculational tool, and when the superposition consists of
>>> orthogonal component states, it allows us to calculate the probabilities of
>>> the measured system transitioning to the state of any component. In this
>>> interpretation, essentially the CI, there remains the unsolved problem of
>>> providing a mechanism for the transition from the SWE, to the collapse to
>>> one of the eigenfunctions when the the measurement occurs. I prefer to
>>> leave that as an unsolved problem, than accept the extravagance of the MWI,
>>> or decoherence theory, which IMO doesn't explain the paradoxes referred to
>>> above, but rather executes what amounts to a punt, claiming the paradoxes
>>> exist for short times so can be viewed as nonexistent, or solved. AG.
>>
>> It is not for short time, it is forever.
>>
>> No way forever; at least not the claim of decoherence theory, which was the
>> context of my comment. For decoherence theory, the time is very, very short.
>> I say it is zero, insofar as the instrument has ample time to decohere long
>> before it is associated with any experiment. AG
>>
>> You are just postulating that QM is wrong, which is indeed what the
>> Copenhagen theory suggest.
>>
>> No. I am asserting that the INTERPRETATION of the superposition of states is
>> wrong. Although I have asked several times, no one here seems able to offer
>> a plausible justification for interpreting that a system in a superposition
>> of states, is physically in all states of the superposition SIMULTANEOUSLY
>> before the system is measured. If we go back to those little pointing
>> things, you will see there exists an infinite uncountable set of basis
>> vectors for any vector in that linear vector space. For quantum systems,
>> there is no unique basis, and in many cases also infinitely many bases, So
>> IMO, the interpretation is not justified. AG
> ***SIMULTANEOUSLY*** was used by EPR in their paper, but that did not have
> much meaning (operationally, physically).
>
It can relatively to some third person. There is a notion of being space-like
separated. But EPR missed the Many-worlds, which makes everything covariant.
> Can we say that the observable, in a superposition state, has a
> ***DEFINITE*** value between two measurements?
>
> No - in general - we cannot say that.
>
>
It can have a definite value locally, but it makes no sense in the global
multiverse/multi-histories. The same situation occurs with simple mechanism in
cognitive science where you can be duplicated. “Who are you” or “where will you
find yourself” has no meaning in the 3p view (that is exploited systematically
by Clark to dismiss the first person indeterminacy), but it makes still sense
in the first person view.
Bruno
>
>> An excellent book both on QM, interpretation and quantum logic is the book
>> by Bub. I am rereading it.
>>
>> Now, the MW is not so extravagant when you put it in the Mechanist frame.
>>
>> Then Joe the Plumber has immense power to create universes. I don't buy it.
>> AG
>>
>> Indeed, it is expected once you believe that Diophantine equations have
>> solutions. All computations or histories exist, with relative probabilities
>> structured by the constraints of relative self-correctness. From that view,
>> it is the uniqueness of the physical universe which seems extravagant, I
>> would say.
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> LC
>>>
>>> On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 5:50:12 PM UTC-5, agrays...@gmail.com <>
>>> wrote:
>>> Why don't we observe the pure states, decayed + undecayed, or decayed -
>>> undecayed? TIA, AG
>>>
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>>
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