> On 19 Oct 2018, at 00:56, Bruce Kellett <[email protected]> wrote: > > From: Bruno Marchal <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >>> On 16 Oct 2018, at 03:50, Brent Meeker <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> The "separation" of science from religion was the invention of science > > Quite. What follows from Bruno is just Humpty Dumpty history and philosophy.
Tell me what is your metaphysics, then , and how you test it? If have a better theory, than the greeks or the universal machine, Bruno > > Bruce > > >> Not at all. Science is born with Plato, who understood that for having a >> fundamental science, we must believe in a reality, and that this need an act >> of faith. That reality is GOD, the object of religion. >> Of course, the popular religion did have all sort of Gods, from turtles all >> the way down, to very personalised sort of reality. Now, when religion is >> done with the scientific attitude, which is what Plato did, >> it is named theology, and for one millenium it was a science. The Reality >> was mainly either Nature, or something else which would be deeper and non >> natural (“supernatural”). Plato called it the “world of ideas” (the Noùs). >> Plato’s world of idea was inspired by Pythagorus who taught it as being >> “only number”. >> >> That theology has progressed and gave birth to Mathematics, which was seen >> as the alternative of physics. >> The (Neo)pythagorean and the (Neo)platonist will pursue that line where the >> doubt was about the fundamental nature of reality was >> immaterial/mathematical. You might read Plotinus' ennead “On number”, to see >> how Plotinus foresaw Cantor, and the machine’s discourse. The term >> “mathematician” was used at that time to mean “rationalist sceptics about >> the fundamental nature of the physical reality”/ The original doubt was >> between mathematics and physics as fundamental science. Aristotle will side >> with Plato on this, but his interest in Nature will make him to influence >> people to opt the idea that physics might be directly about reality. >> >> For example, in the year 400 Hypatia was teaching both the Mathematics of >> Diophantus, and the theology of Plotinus. That was very common. >> >> But, the christians will separated into intellectual, disputing if Plato or >> Aristotle were right, and integrist or radicals which will use religion to >> get power, and the history is that, despite Constantin (Roman emperor >> converted to Christianity) was rather close to the platonist intellectual, >> eventually the radicals will get the power. >> After 529, when the emperor Justinian did close Plato’s Academy, the Church >> will, by its action separate theology (the fundamental science of the greek >> per definition) from science.The result is that science will be associated >> more and more with Aristotle: that is: the belief in physical primary >> universe. Science itself became a psedo-religion, with a sort of dogma: >> Matter, and this up to the point that today, most people have completely >> forget that the original debate was never on the existence of the ONE (god) >> but on the existence of a primary (“physicalist”) Nature. >> By separating religion-theology from science, religion will keep the popular >> superstition, and buried a millenium of science. Theology/religion will >> become more and more an instrument of politics (of the non democratic kind, >> of course). >> The first attempt to separate religion from the state and politics, cale >> from religious people wanting to save religion/theology from politics (not >> for saving politics from religion!: that will come later). >> >> Superstition was just popular, in all sciences before the greeks. A religion >> is only a conception of reality, and Plato understood that the belief in a >> reality cannot be rational (exactly what the universal machine explain all >> by themselves, by <>t -> ~[]<>t (<>t = consistency = a reality exist, by >> Gödel’s COMPLETENESS theorem). >> >> The first superstition were on the ONE thing responsible for all the others, >> and it became, with Plato, the thing which we need to unify all sciences. >> Theology gave quickly birth to mathematics and physics, seen as alternative. >> In the 19th century, mathematical logic will born from a dispute between >> unionists (mostly mathematicians) and trinitarians (mostly clergyman, but >> still intellectual knowing well Plato, to attack his immaterial and non >> personal conception of the fundamental reality). >> >> Todays science is superstitious or dogmatic (or both) in making physics into >> the fundamental science, despite there has never been a shadow of evidence >> for primary matter. Indeed, we don’t even try to seek such evidences, >> contrary to the ancient who tried at least to find one. After 529, all those >> doubting the materialist dogma were banished or killed. Neoplatonism >> (scientific theology will still continue up to 1258, where, unfortunately >> Islam will decide to submit Reason to the Text (the Quran, then) against >> Averroes, who defended the idea that the TEXT must be submitted >> (interpreted) to Reason (which will influence the Renaissance). > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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