On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 11:30:15 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 30 Oct 2018, at 14:21, agrays...@gmail.com <javascript:> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 8:58:30 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 29 Oct 2018, at 13:55, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, October 29, 2018 at 10:22:02 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 28 Oct 2018, at 13:21, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 9:27:56 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 25 Oct 2018, at 17:12, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 10:39:11 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> If a system is in a superposition of states, whatever value measured, 
>>>>> will be repeated if the same system is repeatedly measured.  But what 
>>>>> happens if the system is in a mixed state? TIA, AG
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you think about it, whatever value you get on a single trial for a 
>>>> mixed state, repeated on the same system, will result in the same value 
>>>> measured repeatedly. If this is true, how does measurement distinguish 
>>>> superposition of states, with mixed states? AG
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That is not correct. You can distinguish a mixture of particles in the 
>>>> up or down states with a set of 1/sqrt(2)(up+down) by measuring them with 
>>>> the {1/sqrt(2)(up+down), 1/sqrt(2)(up-down}) discriminating apparatus. 
>>>> With 
>>>> the mixture, half the particles will be defected in one direction, with 
>>>> the 
>>>> pure state, they will all pass in the same direction. Superposition would 
>>>> not have been discovered if that was not the case.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *And someone will supply the apparatus measuring (up + down), and (up - 
>>> down)? No such apparatuses are possible since those states are inherently 
>>> contradictory. We can only measure up / down. AG*
>>>
>>>
>>> You can do the experience by yourself using a simple crystal of calcium 
>>> (CaCO3, Island Spath), or with polarising glass. Or with Stern-Gerlach 
>>> devices and electron spin. Just rotating (90° or 180°) an app/down 
>>> apparatus, gives you an (up + down)/(up - down) apparatus. 
>>>
>>
>> *I don't understand. With SG one can change the up/down axis by rotation, 
>> but that doesn't result in an (up + down), or (up - down) measurement. If 
>> that were the case, what is the operator for which those states are 
>> eigenstates? Which book by Albert? AG *
>>
>>
>> David Z Albert, Quantum Mechanics and Experience, Harvard University 
>> Press, 1992.
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/Quantum-Mechanics-Experience-David-Albert/dp/0674741137
>>
>> Another very good books is
>>
>> D’Espagnat B. Conceptual foundations of Quantum mechanics,  I see there 
>> is a new edition here:
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/Conceptual-Foundations-Quantum-Mechanics-Advanced/dp/0738201049/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1540889778&sr=1-1&keywords=d%27espagnat+conceptual+foundation+of+quantum+mechanics&dpID=41NcluHD6fL&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch
>>
>> It explains very well the difference between mixtures and pure states.
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>
> *Thanks for the references. I think I have a reasonable decent 
> understanding of mixed states. Say a system is in a mixed state of phi1 and 
> phi2 with some probability for each. IIUC, a measurement will always result 
> in an eigenstate of either phi1 or phi2 (with relative probabilities 
> applying). *
>
>
> If the measurement is done with a phi1/phi2 discriminating apparatus. Keep 
> in mind that any state can be seen as a superposition of other oblique or 
> orthogonal states.
>
>
>
> *So if we're measuring spin, the result will always be an eigenstate of 
> the spin vector for phi1 or phi2. But (up + down) and (up - down) are NOT 
> eigenstates of either. How then can you justify your claim of measuring (up 
> + down) or (up - down)? AG  *
>
>
>
> By rotating the polariser filter: (abstracting from some normalising 
> factor which is supposed to be 1/sqrt(2))
>
> up’ = up + down
> down’ = up - down
>
> up = up’ + down’
> down = up’ - down’
>

*Supposing your equations true, if you measure Up or Dn, you don't get Up + 
Dn, or Up - Dn as a result (only Up or Dn) since those states are not 
eigenstates of the spin operator even though Up and Dn can be written as 
linear combinations in the primed basis. IMO, your mistake is to think 
because you can write Up or Dn as linear sums in the primed basis, you have 
measured Up + Dn, or Up - Dn in the unprimed basis. AG*

>
> If you measure a set of photons all in the state up’= up+down in the base 
> {up’, down’}, they all get the same result up'.
>

*Do you mean measure the same photon when it passes through two devices, 
first where it measures Up, and then through a polarizer rotated 90 
degrees? AG*

If you measure a set of photons from a mixture of up and down, in the same 
> base {up’, down’}, half of them will be up’, and half of them will be down’.
>


*Same result I think if you measure in unprimed base for superpositions and 
mixed states.  AG *

>
> Bruno
>
> Buy the book by David Albert. It will help you a lot, I think.
>>>
>>> Bruno
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Bruno
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>>> Groups "Everything List" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>>> an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "Everything List" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>> an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "Everything List" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>>
>>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Everything List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>.
> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com 
> <javascript:>.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Reply via email to