On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 12:21 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < [email protected]> wrote:
> > > On Friday, 26 April 2019 17:27:48 UTC+3, Terren Suydam wrote: >> >> >> >> The original question was asking for an explanation of how this new kind >> of sense qualia could arise when it's mediated by a technological device. >> I expect this to be a problem for you, because of your insistence that such >> devices don't exist, and your lack of ability to account for the >> correspondence between brain states and qualia. >> > > I don't think there is any fundamental difference between a new sense and > experiences in terms of senses one already has. They are both > manifestations of emergence. For example, the auditory domain is not > exactly "a new sense". Is just a set of qualia that emerge upon the quale > of time. And then it keeps branching: from sounds in one direction you get > language, in another direction you get music, etc. So it is itself a "new > experience in terms of senses one already has - the sense of time". So the > problem is not particular about how a certain "sense" appears, but is the > general problem of how qualia appear. Now, regarding how qualia appear, the > straight answer is that I don't know. And nobody knows. Nevertheless, I can > give some guiding clues. For example, what we call "senses" and their basic > qualia appear to be sets of qualia that serve evolutionary purposes. As I > also mentioned in another post, red and green appeared to see fruits in > trees, yellow and blue appeared to see the sun in the sky. We can imagine > something like this: an animal was seeing only shades-of-gray and he was > starving. The fruits were right in front of him, but because he didn't have > the qualia of red and green, he couldn't see them. So he was one step from > dying. And then all of a sudden red and green appeared in his consciousness > and he survived. You can take some quantum-suicide view on this: you always > continue in the universe in which you remain alive. So this might be a > tentative explanation. But of course it is not the full story since in > everyday life we keep getting new qualia without our lfie being in danger. > So a more general principle must be sought. Of course, that principle will > only show us the conditions under which qualia appear, but it will not be > able to tell us what those qualia will be. All we will ever be able to do > is to subject ourselves to those conditions and see what qualia appear in > our consciousness. > That's a move that's not available to you - you cannot reference "evolutionary purposes", because evolutionary purposes do not exist in your theory. You cannot talk about fruits that existed before a consciousness was able to perceive them, because fruits do not exist in your theory. The only move you can make in order to explain the emergence of new qualia is to explain it in terms of the only thing you postulate to exist, namely consciousness. Thus far the only thing you've said about that is that, somehow, consciousnesses interact, and their interaction creates qualia, and the rules qualia appear to obey. But this is just hand waving. How does one go from seeing black & white to color? How does a deaf person begin to hear sound? The answer you provide must not invoke anything that does not exist in your theory. If you're answer is "I don't know" then I applaud your honesty, but you leave me no reason to accept anything you've said. If you're equating science done in dreams and science done in reality, >>>> you're a solipsist. >>>> >>>> No. Because I allow for other consciousnesses to exist. >>> >> >> Do you know for sure they do? Or do you just allow for the possibility? >> >> > > I have 3 ideas that I take for granted in my thinking, because I don't > think there is any way to prove them true: > > 1) Other consciousnesses exist. > 2) Memories are true. > 3) Reason is true. > > If you don't take these 3 things for granted, there is nothing much left > to do except indulging in hedonism. > Does your theory depend on the existence of other consciousnesses besides your own? Does it fail if there are no other consciousnesses? What does "memories are true" mean? What does "reason is true" mean? Terren > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
