If "consciousness doesn't supervene on physical [or material] computation" then does that mean there is realm for (A) consciousness and one for (B) physical [or material] computation?
Is A like some spirit or ghost that invades the domain of B? Or does B invade A? @philipthrift On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 1:44:34 PM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: > > > On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 1:10 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > [email protected] <javascript:>> wrote: > >> I think that is right. But when you consider some simplified cases, e.g. >> a computation written out on paper (or Bruno's movie graph) it becomes >> apparent that consciousness must ultimately refer to other things. >> > > Right, the movie graph argument shows that consciousness doesn't supervene > on physical computation. Nevertheless, the character of my consciousness > still corresponds with the kind of cybernetic system implemented by e.g. my > brain and body, as instantiated by the infinity of programs going through > my state. > > >> Much is made of "self-awareness" but this is usually just having an >> internal model of one's body, or social standing or some other model of the >> self. It is not consciousness of consciousness...that is only a temporal >> reflection: "I was conscious just now." >> > > I see it a little differently. The self-model/ego is a higher-order > construct that organizes the system in a holistic way. We take this for > granted - it's the water we swim in - but our minds are radically > re-organized as children by the taught narrative that we have an identity > and this unitary identity is the *cause* of our behavior (when the > evidence shows that we merely rationalize our behavior in terms of that > narrative). Point being, the way the cybernetic system is organized takes a > quantum leap in complexity as a result - and this is responsible for the > subjective awareness of ourselves as people. > > In the dream state (except for lucid dreaming), our self-model is not > energized - ongoing experience in dreams is not organized in terms of that > narrative of being someone. When lucid dreaming begins, it is because we > can say "I am dreaming", which is to say that the self-model becomes > active. In that moment, the character of that dream consciousness changes > dramatically. > > >> In general terms we could say consciousness is awareness of the >> evironment, where that includes one's body. Damasio identifies emotions as >> awareness of the bodies state. The point is that the stuff of which we are >> aware and which we find agreement with other people's awareness is what we >> infer to be the physical world. It might be possible to be conscious in >> some sense without a physical world, but it would be qualitatively >> different. >> > > Yes. However, it's not clear what it would mean for a conscious agent to > experience something that wasn't a "physical" world, even if the > environment was completely virtual. The Matrix illustrates that nicely. > > Terren > > >> >> Brent >> >> On 5/3/2019 6:27 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: >> >> One way to get around this is to hold that consciousness is associated >> with the way information is processed. This is substrate independent - the >> fact that a brain is physical is beside the point. You could implement a >> brain in software, and insofar as the same kinds of information processing >> occur, it would be conscious in the same kind of way. >> >> I find this idea compelling because it makes the link between brains and >> consciousness without requiring matter, and provides a framework for >> understanding consciousnesses of other kinds of machines. All that's >> required is to assume there is something it is like for computation to >> occur. >> >> Terren >> >> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 2:26 AM <[email protected] <javascript:>> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 8:03:52 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 5/2/2019 4:55 PM, [email protected] wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 5:37:26 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 5/2/2019 11:39 AM, [email protected] wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Apparently *matter* is not "reducible" to just the physics a couple >>>>> of particles. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Then you're not a materialist. You think there is matter plus >>>>> something else, that everyone calls "mind", but you're going to call it >>>>> "matter" and add it to everyone else's list of matter so you can still >>>>> call >>>>> yourself a materialist. >>>>> >>>>> Brent >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> But everything reducing to the physics of particles is thought of as >>>> *physicalism* (not materialism): >>>> *Physicalism and materialism* >>>> >>>> Reductive physicalism >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductive_physicalism>...is normally >>>> assumed to be incompatible with panpsychism. Materialism >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism>, if held to be distinct >>>> from physicalism, is compatible with panpsychism insofar as mental >>>> properties >>>> >>>> >>>> What mental properties? intention? reflection? remembering? That's >>>> what I mean by saying attributing "experience" to matter is an >>>> unprincipled >>>> half-measure. >>>> >>>> Brent >>>> >>> >>> >>> Brains are matter, just as livers, legs, trees, tables, rocks, comets, >>> planets, stars, cockroaches, galaxies, bacteria .. are matter. >>> >>> Brains produce intentions, reflections, remembrances, ... . >>> >>> So (at least some) matter of the cosmos has psychical (mental) >>> properties. >>> >>> The body+mind idea, the idea that mind is something separate from body, >>> is perhaps the worst idea ever invented. >>> >>> @philipthrift >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected] <javascript:>. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>> <javascript:>. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] <javascript:>. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >> <javascript:>. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] <javascript:>. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >> <javascript:>. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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