> On 3 May 2019, at 20:44, [email protected] wrote: > > > > All software that has ever run has run on computers made of materials and > assembled in factories.
Not at all. If you believe in things like the distribution of prime numbers, used in physics (btw), then you have to believe that all computations are run in arithmetic, and matter emerges from this. Bruno > > There is no spiritual/heavenly realm - as fat as I know - where software is > running. > > Can you show me such a place? Have you seen it? > > @philipthrift > > On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 9:33:58 AM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: > What happened to "only brains can be conscious"? > > Are you familiar with virtual machines? Machines simulated in software? > > On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 10:10 AM <[email protected] <javascript:>> wrote: > > > The general response here is that there has never existed a program that has > executed outside a computer. And computers are made of matter. > > Now one can generalize "computer": There were things like the abacus and > slide rule, that executed "programs". Or one executes programs in the head > (so to speak). But this is the brain,. Again, matter. Or one takes one's hand > and a pencil or pen and executes a program on a piece of paper. Again. all > matter > > Now one can watch a movie (like 2001 with the HAL 9000) or read a book of > fiction where there is a program running on a some computer. But this is a > fictional story. > > One can imagine a program running on an imaginary computer, but this > imagining is all done in the brain. Matter. > > But give me an example of a program running in a "matter free" environment: > No brains, hands, pencils, computers, abacuses, slide rules, around. > > Is it like some ghost out on its own in some immaterial realm? > > > @philipthift > > > > On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 8:27:35 AM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: > One way to get around this is to hold that consciousness is associated with > the way information is processed. This is substrate independent - the fact > that a brain is physical is beside the point. You could implement a brain in > software, and insofar as the same kinds of information processing occur, it > would be conscious in the same kind of way. > > I find this idea compelling because it makes the link between brains and > consciousness without requiring matter, and provides a framework for > understanding consciousnesses of other kinds of machines. All that's > required is to assume there is something it is like for computation to occur. > > Terren > > On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 2:26 AM <[email protected] <>> wrote: > > > On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 8:03:52 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > On 5/2/2019 4:55 PM, [email protected] <> wrote: >> >> >> On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 5:37:26 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> On 5/2/2019 11:39 AM, [email protected] <> wrote: >>> >>> Apparently matter is not "reducible" to just the physics a couple of >>> particles. >> >> Then you're not a materialist. You think there is matter plus something >> else, that everyone calls "mind", but you're going to call it "matter" and >> add it to everyone else's list of matter so you can still call yourself a >> materialist. >> >> Brent >> >> >> >> >> But everything reducing to the physics of particles is thought of as >> physicalism (not materialism): >> Physicalism and materialism >> >> Reductive physicalism >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductive_physicalism>...is normally assumed >> to be incompatible with panpsychism. Materialism >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism>, if held to be distinct from >> physicalism, is compatible with panpsychism insofar as mental properties >> > > What mental properties? intention? reflection? remembering? That's what I > mean by saying attributing "experience" to matter is an unprincipled > half-measure. > > Brent > > > Brains are matter, just as livers, legs, trees, tables, rocks, comets, > planets, stars, cockroaches, galaxies, bacteria .. are matter. > > Brains produce intentions, reflections, remembrances, ... . > > So (at least some) matter of the cosmos has psychical (mental) properties. > > The body+mind idea, the idea that mind is something separate from body, is > perhaps the worst idea ever invented. > > @philipthrift > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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