On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 6:09:18 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 5/17/2019 3:33 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 5:21:41 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 5/16/2019 11:51 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 5:14:46 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 1:48 PM Philip Thrift <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> *> Information processing absent actual first-class entities >>>> of qualia (or experiences) can only produce zombies. One needs information >>>> processing operating in a material substrate where those entities are >>>> available to be combined and manipulated.* >>> >>> >>> So something can behave intelligently but if it is lacking "f*irst-class >>> entities of qualia*" it can only be a intelligent zombie. But "*first-class >>> qualia*" sounds like consciousness to me, so you're basically saying >>> only conscious things can be conscious. A tautology has the virtue of >>> always >>> being true but it involves a unnecessary non-required pointless >>> repetition and reiteration of words where you end up at the exact same >>> place you started with. And that is typical of all consciousness theories. >>> >>> John K Clark >>> >>> >>> >>> >> To be clearer: Qualia (the "ingredients" of consciousness) cannot be >> reduced to information processing. >> >> >> That's nothing but unsupported assertion. It's not even clear what >> "reduced" means in that context. >> >> (That is what I mean by "first-class". If qualia could be reduced to >> information processing, then they would derivative from information, or >> "second-class".) >> >> >> Is life derivative from chemistry? Only within a certain environment. >> Same with information processing. In general it's streams of bits being >> processed being changed according to some algorithm. But it's qualia if >> the streams are in some entity whose environment and actions give meaning >> to the information, like "I've got a headache and I'm going to lie down." >> >> Brent >> > > > > Isn't *qualia can be reduced to information processing* the unsupported > assertion? > > > No. It's very well supported. Interfere with information processing by > drugs or electrical stimulus of the brain and qualia are changed or > eliminated. > > Brent >
*Information processing (IP) is necessary for consciousness*, but IP has to occur in a substrate that produces qualia. *Stop the IP and you stop consciousness.* But *the same IP* *in a different substrate* could be consciousnessless. The above substate is the material of the brain: neurons, neurochemistry, glia, ... A simulation of gravity running in a smartphone does not produce gravity. People talk of telepathy and precognition as delusional - broadly speaking, it is. But the "IP delusion" (that consciousness is substate-independent IP) is up there. @philipthrift -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/0ee4f338-58ff-4d92-aa7a-25180073b8b1%40googlegroups.com.
