> On 16 May 2019, at 14:18, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On 5/16/2019 3:00 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 13 May 2019, at 20:48, Philip Thrift <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Monday, May 13, 2019 at 1:23:22 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> >>>> On 11 May 2019, at 08:13, Philip Thrift <[email protected] <javascript:>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> https://aeon.co/ideas/how-the-dualism-of-descartes-ruined-our-mental-health >>>> >>>> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Faeon.co%2Fideas%2Fhow-the-dualism-of-descartes-ruined-our-mental-health&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNHE2JiWV3LHmz8TKy5ZflJKDY5x1Q> >>>> ... >>>> Nature was thereby drained of her inner life, rendered a deaf and blind >>>> apparatus of indifferent and value-free law, and humankind was faced with >>>> a world of inanimate, meaningless matter, upon which it projected its >>>> psyche – its aliveness, meaning and purpose – only in fantasy. >>>> ... >>>> The bifurcation of mind and nature was at the root of immeasurable secular >>>> progress – medical and technological advance, the rise of individual >>>> rights and social justice, to name just a few. It also protected us all >>>> from being bound up in the inherent uncertainty and flux of nature. It >>>> gave us a certain omnipotence – just as it gave science empirical control >>>> over nature – and most of us readily accept, >>>> and willingly spend, the inheritance bequeathed by it, and rightly so. >>>> >>>> In the face of an indifferent and unresponsive world that neglects to >>>> render our experience meaningful outside of our own minds – for >>>> nature-as-mechanism is powerless to do this – >>> >>> >>> Yes, nature does not even exist as mechanism, so the notion of >>> “nature-as-mechanism” is globally non sensical, yet locally, it works for >>> person supported by highly probable computations, but nature becomes a >>> projection, like in a dream. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> our minds have been left fixated on empty representations of a world that >>>> was once its source and being. >>> >>> That is due to the reductionist conception of machine and number. Today, we >>> can defeat it, mathematically. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> All we have, if we are lucky to have them, are therapists and parents who >>>> try to take on what is, in reality, and given the magnitude of the loss, >>>> an impossible task. >>> >>> The loss is due to the separation of theology from science, and the >>> impeaching of the fundamental questioning for a long period. >>> That has led to the separation of human sciences and exact science, making >>> them both into pseudo-metaphysics and pseudo-religion. Then we see only the >>> “superficial” technologies, without understanding of what they implies. To >>> separate science and theologies is a con artist trick to steal your money, >>> and in passing, your soul. >>> >>> When “equated” with the machine, the negative pessimist will say, “oh >>> damned I am only a machine”, but the positive optimistic will say, “nice, >>> so machine can be as nice as I am”. >>> >>> The interesting thing is only that this can be tested. Mechanism has >>> observable consequences. >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> ... >>>> >>>> "How did we ever get the notion of the mind as something distinct from the >>>> body? Why did this bad idea enter our culture?” >>>> -- Richard Rorty >>>> https://news.stanford.edu/news/2005/april13/rorty-041305.html >>>> <https://news.stanford.edu/news/2005/april13/rorty-041305.html> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> The problem (aligning with the above article by psychotherapist James >>> Barnes [ https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-barnes-msc-ma-90766b159/ >>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-barnes-msc-ma-90766b159/> ]) is that >>> there is no (A) mind and the body (or matter), there are (B) experiences of >>> the body (matter). >> >> But that is still a local description. In the “big picture”, the notion of >> “matter” (primitive matter, ontological matter, needed-to-be-assumed matter) >> makes no sense (assuming mechanism). >> >> Yes, we can criticise the terming “mind & body”, which is dualistic. >> >> But to say that there are experience of the body, is as much criticisable. >> How could a body have experience? > > By processing information.
That use the digital mechanist theory. Then the question is, how that body, if it is an ontological object, select the computation supported by that body among all computations supporting that information processing in arithmetic? > >> Only a mind, a person, can have experiences. And matter is one of those >> experience. > > That's looking at it backwards. It's assuming that a person is something > separable from the experiences; But with mechanism, the person is the owner of the first person experience, and the of the memories of them. It is not separable from the experience, only from its many bodies or codes, emulate at the right substitution level, and below, in infinitely many computations. The material bodies have to results from the statistics on all computations, structured by the material modes of the self (the material hypostases). > an error foisted on us by the grammar of Indo-european language. In the > Navajo language one would just say "There is experiencing" without implicitly > postulating a subject. Sure, matter is an inference from experience. > Physics is an empirical science. Empirical observation is that only bodies > report and behave as if they are having experiences and only if their brains > have a certain level of electrochemical activity. Matter is even experienced, but not necessarily as a primary things. We can dream eating, drinking and having aproprio-perception and tactical experiences. Having a brain with electrochemical activity does not prevent the “electrochemical histoires” to emerge from the many-arithmetical-histories. Bruno > >> >> >> >> >>> >>> Speaking in the terminology of (A) has harmed mental health. >> >> Any inadequate belief is the source of some suffering, soon or late. >> >> >>> >>> (Now one can be an experience-monist psychotherapist - everything is >>> experience - but then the therapist has to explain to the patient why they >>> need a particular drug prescription.) >> >> Yes, but the patient does not need the detailed explanation. A medication >> and a brain does not need to have a material ontology > > Metaphysicians have theories which have ontologies. A brain might > instantiate a metaphysician, but a medication can't. > > Brent > >> for the medication doing its work. Like a chef does not need to know the >> biology and fundamental physics to prepare a Pizza. >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >>> >>> @philipthrift >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a5995d0a-e1f2-4e6f-9af6-20865333abee%40googlegroups.com >>> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a5995d0a-e1f2-4e6f-9af6-20865333abee%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/DA678E58-80E7-46A2-9801-177BB19179CA%40ulb.ac.be >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/DA678E58-80E7-46A2-9801-177BB19179CA%40ulb.ac.be?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/9edf0292-8167-31e4-0b63-f5e649836723%40verizon.net > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/9edf0292-8167-31e4-0b63-f5e649836723%40verizon.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/38794870-EE8D-4528-BE48-757A0ABDFEF0%40ulb.ac.be.
