On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 1:34:31 PM UTC-6, howardmarks wrote:
ALL well-conducted experiments for psi (even experiments to
test for "spontaneous occurrences"), NO exceptions, has ZERO
hits - except for unprovable personal claims of "subjective
experiences" like Cosmin's and Grayson's. Any positive
"reports" are either _anecdotal_, very terribly performed
under non-falsifiable hypotheses, or the statistics of small
numbers. The article Cosmin gave below from NIH is typical.
Extremely important tasks that an honest experimentalist
needs to do are to use a large N and properly randomize (if
statistics are employed), which are seldom done. And, as
Cosmin's article reports, often not taken adequately into
consideration are the candidate "telepath's" recent
experiences before the experiment that might color the
results, like "habituation", "priming", facilitation, recall,
and emotional experiences, etc. And, choice of targets for
candidate "telepaths" needs to be neutral, not, as Cosmin's
article suggests for instance, that "a target is a photo that
candidates should "psychically" decide depicts "happiness or
sadness" "ugly or pretty" or whatever.... Bad targets don't
allow randomizing to eliminate all types of emotional "noise."
Intentional or unintentional LYING by the experimenter
(stretching the data by the authors to support their beliefs,
"cherry picking", rejecting data, again to support the
author's beliefs, etc. are often never filtered out from a so
called peer-reviewed "report." NO, THE STATISTICS, FOR
CAREFUL RESEARCHERS, MANY PhD's and university degreed
people, is ZERO. And often experiments that were redone to
"confirm" a reported "hit" also turned out to be misses when
fraud by claimant, cherry picking data, etc. were eliminated.
Precognition? _How is it that truly anonymous precognition
hotlines on the internet, on which predictions are published
before the world and eliminate fraud, lying by the claimants,
has a hit or miss score of ZERO hits (??) with 100s of
thousands of submissions, maybe millions_?? (I gave one link
to a representative hotline elsewhere in this thread)._Even
one hit would bring it off ZERO_. Of course, a rich oink
could have made a prediction of some catastrophe, and later
paid to cause the prediction to happen --- but even that
didn't happen... 5 or 6 figures to ZERO score for
precognition. It doesn't take Wheeler to figure out the
statistics and p for a score of zero to any number....
I am qualified to report on what I say above and elsewhere on
this thread, as my father was a die-hard believer in PSI and
I tried to help him find people that could demonstrate....
Early on, as now, I kept/keep an open impartial mind to new
evidence. I met Randi, CSICOP, CSI members that way, traveled
to a few conventions the believers had, in hopes of finding
even one person who could demonstrate PSI. Nyet. ZERO. Boo
hao.... Is love excluded for these people and
organizations? You will find few individuals with more love
than those looking scientifically for a hit.... sorry Cosmin...
But, Cosmin, the "proofs" you say we (you) are always
receiving that you believe are "proofs" of telepathy - are
definitely not telepathy - and if you are honest, you might
see they are misinterpretations of "rapport" and
"indentification," and other physical communication between
individuals.... This is super easy to show - as for
instance, if you claim to be communicating/ psychically
communing with your girl friend, then it's easy to set up
experiments to isolate the experiences from chance and
external influences such as (but not limited to) both of you
seeing a web news story (or renditions of such), even far
removed, as internet is international, and reacting to it -
then posting on facebook... etc.. as you suggest..... And if
you are honest, you gotta count EVERY non-hit as well as the
hits when you tally a score.... The non-hits gotta be dozens
per day. You are likely labeling experiences you have as
"psychic" when they are actually your "stream of
consciousness," ala' Dr James Joyce (also a psychic
researcher), working overtime.......
Cheers! Howard Marks
*I disagree with Cosmin. The proofs are exceedingly difficult to
come by, primarily because the experiences invariably involve
specific emotional states of the observers, sort of like a dream
in the way the communication occurs. I would doubt the
phenomenon can be shown by simple minded experiments involving
statistics and predictions, like what card will turn up in many
trials. I can recall three such experiences I've had, none of
which I could reproduce due to the special circumstances. AG*
On 10-06-2019 11:51, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List wrote:
You are always receiving proofs, but you always mindlessly
reject them
because you are indoctrinated.
Bem did some experiments proving precognition. 90 other
experiments ,
replicated those results. So where are those "ZERO people"
that you
talk about ? Fake news much ?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4706048/
<https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4706048/>
On Monday, 10 June 2019 12:45:28 UTC+3, smitra wrote: Prove
your points. On 6/10/2019 7:24 AM, John Clark wrote:
On Sun, Jun 9, 2019 at 10:19 PM Alan Grayson
<agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>///I've had a few "telepathic" experiences/
>> There is a new job opening for a good telepath, the
pay is very good and the benefits are terrific. You
know where to apply.
/> We're not sufficiently evolved to make these
phenomena occur by an act of will. They usually occur
when the observer, or chance, sets up the subtle
prerequisite conditions without knowing exactly what
they are./
It doesn't matter how rare it is, if the phenomena existed
at all it would show up statistically if you performed
enough trials. And every single day millions of people bet
on the lottery and it's easy to calculate how much money the
state should make on average each day if the telepathic
effect was zero; and every day that is indeed what turns out
to have occurred. The outcome is always consistent with the
telepathic effect being zero. States are so certain of the
consistency of this revenue stream they base their budgets
on it.
And it's not just the lottery, the next time you go to Los
Vegas take a look at all those big beautiful casinos and ask
yourself where the money to build them came from. It came
from the pockets of people just like you who thought they
were telepathic and could beat the law of averages.
If it were real the existence of telepathy would have been
demonstrated to EVERYBODY'S satisfaction centuries ago, but
instead we are rehashing the same crappy anecdotal evidence
we were centuries ago and going nowhere.
John K Clark
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