> On 27 Jun 2019, at 11:32, Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 26, 2019, at 19:18, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 25 Jun 2019, at 12:27, Telmo Menezes <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 25, 2019, at 08:30, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote: >>>> So Feyerabend can't tell ISIS from NASA or the National Academy of Science >>>> from the Papacy. >>> >>> My mother is fairly religious. She goes to church every Sunday and she >>> particularly likes the Virgin Mary. >> >> >> You know the story I guess, in Oaxaca, Mexico, when a young shaman mazatec >> tried to explain the notion of Virgin Mary, coming from the new coming >> Christians, to the old Shaman of the village. He tried everything, but the >> old one still did not understand whom they were talking about, when >> eventually the young shaman said, it is the one we met with salvia >> divinorum, and the old guy said “Aaaah! That One!”. >> >> The Mazatec name of salvia divinorum is Maria Ska Pastora. The Mazatec >> describes her as very shy, but that might have depended to their mode of >> consumption. I guess the average teenager knows better ... > > I know :) > >> >> >> >>> She is aware that her beliefs are non-justifiable, but she still holds them. >> >> >> And not only there is nothing inconsistent with this, but that is what all >> (Löbian) machine, like PA, already understand. Although the difference >> between truth and false is clearcut, the difference between rational and >> irrational is not, and it is speared by a corona we might call surrational: >> it is what is true (including what is true for some entity) and not provable >> by that entity. >> (Similarly, there is the false yet irrefutable). >> >> That explains why the universal machine is condemned to oscillate between >> security and liberty/universality. >> >> Even our laptops. An army of engineers have conspired to make it into a >> docile slave. That has more ecomical value than a machine searching its own >> origin!). >> >> Send this mail ô Computer! >> >> As you already know, it did it! >> >> >> >>> Are you saying that there is no difference between my mother and ISIS? >>> Religion is a large spectrum of things and so is science. >> >> >> Yes. Religion only extends science, like G* only extends G. >> >> If a religion contradicts science, one of the two is wrong, and it is matter >> of research to see what fits with the facts. >> >> Einstein is right on this: science without religion is lame. >> >> A religion is a conception of reality. The taste for studying the nature of >> that reality is the prerequisite to do fundamental research, and it is needs >> some belief in the existence of some reality, which we can never prove (more >> clearly so when assuming Mechanism, but tare are there argument). >> >> Religion is helpful to distinguish: >> -working for living (the free-man) >> -living for working (the slave). >> >> But that explains also the velocity of different sort of people to forbid >> religion, and the best way to do this is to appropriate it and organise it. >> >> It is a big lie, because the aim of religion is to free the people from >> authoritative arguments, like when christian bwitis initiate kids to >> adulthood by taking Tabernanathe iboga. Institutionalised religion, on the >> century, forbids drugs, and fight against mystics experience, except to >> divinise some of them for advertising purpose, a long time after the death >> of some popular mystics. > > Right. We have talked a lot about this and you know that I agree. > > I would add: the most powerful institutions are the ones that are invisible.
Yes. Like the worst prejudices are those harried by millions years of life-struggle. With human, you have also the secret institution, which are not visible, not transparent. > The currently dominant religion in the Western world has no name. I think we can talk on paradigm. Most people today are ((weak) materialist. We are in the Aristotelian (materialist) Era. > There is no easy way to talk about it, and that makes it very hard to attack > it. It's very powerful: one can claim to be Catholic, or Protestant, or > Atheist, and superficially participate in the rituals of these groups, but > the actual beliefs underneath this superficial layer are very similar and > almost impossible to question without sounding like a lunatic. It is often the case when we get something showing that the actual paradigm might be wrong. Scientist should have no problem with that, but dogmatic materialism exists in some institutions, and atheists can be more dogmatic on this “matter” than the Pope. > I don't see this as some conspiracy, I believe that human-created "social > organisms" suffer the same sort of evolutionary process as biological > organism, and likewise aquire highly sophisticated survival strategies. There is no conspiracies at that level, but that does not prevent the infinitely many humans conspiracies, all the times. Some fake conspiracies are real meta-conspiracy! > > It's the same with empires. For example: one of the things that happens when > an empire initiates its downward trajectory is that it stops being invisible. > I leave historical and contemporary examples as an exercise for the reader. I > have in mind both geographical and corporate empires. Is not the invisible a part of our ignorance. The problem is the human susceptibility, the little ego-illusion, the lack of trust in the higher self, etc. I am optimist for the long run, but as long as theology is not back in science, or said better, as long as reason is forbidden in the fundamental inquiry, be it with matter or with a person, the obscurantism will prevail. Of course, health should be back in science too. In the heath domain, the theory and the practice can literally fight against each other, notably confused by the goal of making money from disease … But on this matter, to pick you a little bit where we might disagree, the only real solution is that we have to vote better, and to get laws as less bad as possible. We can reduce the harm, and we can test diverse politics. I hope I am not missing your post, feel free to elaborate, ‘course. Bruno > > Telmo. > >> >> >> >> >>> >>> I might agree with you that Feyerabend takes things too far, but these >>> over-simplifications are not very good arguments. This is my problem with >>> militant atheism: you guys can't seem to resist using the tools of the >>> enemy. >> >> >> The militant or fanatic atheists (to use Einstein’s term) illustrate that >> they help the radicals in avoiding the doubt on the fundamental matter. >> >> They claim to love Hypatia, the great Mathematician of Alexandria, as she >> was atheists, and murdered by a Christian mob, but they forget to say that >> at that time “atheist” was used for the Pagan theologian, and that she was >> feared by the radicals, by teaching to the christians Plotinus theology, >> along with Mathematics and Astronomy. >> >> It is sad an ironical. The god / non-god debate hides the fact that >> materialism is a religion too, a metaphysical assumption, and some can doubt >> it, and that can help to progress in the fundamental field. There is no >> progress for those who believe or claim that they already know the answer. >> Bien évidemment. >> >> Bruno >> >> >>> >>> Telmo. >>> >>>> >>>> Brent >>>> >>>> >>>> On 6/24/2019 10:09 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "Feyerabend felt that science started as a liberating movement, but over >>>>> time it had become increasingly dogmatic and rigid, and therefore had >>>>> become increasingly an ideology and despite its successes science had >>>>> started to attain some oppressive features, and it was not possible [any >>>>> longer] to come up with an unambiguous way to distinguish science from >>>>> religion." >>>>> >>>>> Epistemological anarchism >>>>> From Wikipedia >>>>> >>>>> @philipthrift >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 6:04:04 PM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell wrote: >>>>> I think one could be most on the mark by calling this "how bad money >>>>> chases out good money." I joined this list last fall, and in the last >>>>> couple of months it seems to have fallen over to various humbugs >>>>> promoting nonsense. these threads of late have degenerated into pure >>>>> rubbish, bad thinking chasing out good thinking. >>>>> >>>>> LC >>>>> >>>>> On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 10:46:37 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: >>>>> I changed the title of this thread, I don't even know what the old one >>>>> means. >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 8:31 AM Bruno Marchal <[email protected] <>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > the natural transplant you mention might be the result of an analog, >>>>> > continuous process. It would make a difference if all the decimals >>>>> > plays a role in consciousness. >>>>> >>>>> Even if you ignore the fact that it has been experimentally proven that >>>>> Bell's Inequality is violated and you claim there if a difference between >>>>> one Hydrogen atom and another, that is to say somewhere along that >>>>> infinite sequence of digits there is a difference, what you say makes no >>>>> sense. The atoms in my brain HAVE been replaced and yet I know for a FACT >>>>> I have survived; I don't know for a fact that the same is true for you >>>>> but I think it's reasonable to assume it is. So even if there is >>>>> something analog going on inside an atom, if we're talking about >>>>> consciousness and survival it's irrelevant. >>>>> >>>>> >Of course, Darwin theory of evolution would become inconsistent, but >>>>> >logically, we cannot exclude the possibility >>>>> >>>>> If a mathematical statement, even a well formed grammatically correct >>>>> one, contradicts a well established observation then it would be logical >>>>> to conclude the statement does not correspond with reality; after all >>>>> every language can write fiction as well as nonfiction. The fiction >>>>> could be fun to read and the very best might even have some sort of vague >>>>> poetic relationship to a truth, but there is not a literal correspondence >>>>> to reality. >>>>> >>>>> >> Even if a Hydrogen atom has some secret analog process going on inside >>>>> >> of it when one atom gets replaced by another atom, that is to say when >>>>> >> one analog process gets replaced by another analog process, I STILL >>>>> >> survive. >>>>> >>>>> > That is the mechanist assumption. You can truncate the infinite decimal >>>>> > expansion in the analog process running a brain. >>>>> >>>>> It's not an assumption it's a OBSERVATION! Atoms in my brain have been >>>>> replaced many many times and yet my consciousness has continued. My only >>>>> ASSUMPTION is that you are like me and are also conscious. >>>>> >>>>> >> So that hypothetical secret mysterious analog process is the Hydrogen >>>>> >> atom's business not mine, it has nothing to do with me. >>>>> >>>>> > Assuming that you substitution level is above the truncation of the >>>>> > decimals used in the atom. But a non computationalist can assert that >>>>> > his consciousness requires all decimals. >>>>> >>>>> Then the non computationalist must logically conclude that he is not >>>>> conscious. I thought solipsists were bad but at least they thought they >>>>> were conscious even if nobody else was, but your non computationalist >>>>> doesn't even think he is conscious. How a non conscious person is able to >>>>> think of anything I will leave as an exercise for the reader. >>>>> >>>>> >>> In which theory? >>>>> >>>>> >> In the very controversial theory that says if I have observed X then I >>>>> >> have observed X. >>>>> >>>>> >You cannot observe a philosophical assumption. >>>>> >>>>> You can observe that a philosophical assumption is dead wrong, such as >>>>> the philosophical assumption that an infinite string of digits in an >>>>> analog process is always needed to continue consciousness. >>>>> >>>>> >> Proof is not the ultimate, direct experience outranks it, and I have >>>>> >> direct experience I have survived despite numerous brain transplant >>>>> >> operations. >>>>> >>>>> > Yes, and that is good for you, but [...] >>>>> >>>>> But nothing! It's good enough for me to say yes to the doctor and it's >>>>> good enough for me to say yes to being frozen. And if your experience has >>>>> been similar to mine, if your consciousness has also continued despite >>>>> your many brain transplant operations, and if you are a true fan of >>>>> logic, then you must conclude it's good enough for you too. >>>>> > Personal experience is not available when doing science, >>>>> >>>>> True, and that is exactly why no consciousness theory ever devised is >>>>> scientific, and none every will be. But theories about how intelligence >>>>> works are most certainly scientific. >>>>> >>>>> >> It doesn't matter if I can communicate my reason for saying yes to the >>>>> >> doctor (or yes to being frozen). I have no obligation to justify my >>>>> >> actions to you or anybody; based on the evidence I have at my command >>>>> >> it is the logical thing to do. >>>>> >>>>> > Personally, perhaps. Not sure about the guy above, though. >>>>> >>>>> I'm not sure about the other guy either, he might be a zombie for all I >>>>> know, everybody except me might be, all I know for certain is I'm not. >>>>> The other guy is going to have to make his own decision, I can't help >>>>> him, nobody can. >>>>> >>>>> John K Clark >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to [email protected] >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/24ee370b-afd9-495e-b203-7c1118d5d717%40googlegroups.com >>>>> >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/24ee370b-afd9-495e-b203-7c1118d5d717%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to [email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/fa1ee5a5-b923-ebeb-985b-a10c99bfc0a5%40verizon.net >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/fa1ee5a5-b923-ebeb-985b-a10c99bfc0a5%40verizon.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/e01a1781-42bd-4e19-8abc-0aa8d2a77409%40www.fastmail.com >>> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/e01a1781-42bd-4e19-8abc-0aa8d2a77409%40www.fastmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/B82DF4D7-6A01-4C7C-8EE4-71DA87845D19%40ulb.ac.be >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/B82DF4D7-6A01-4C7C-8EE4-71DA87845D19%40ulb.ac.be?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/8e2f87c1-55fb-4e6e-bae9-e46f434bb2af%40www.fastmail.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/8e2f87c1-55fb-4e6e-bae9-e46f434bb2af%40www.fastmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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