On Thursday, November 7, 2019 at 11:39:52 PM UTC-7, Alan Grayson wrote: > > > > On Thursday, November 7, 2019 at 10:58:13 PM UTC-7, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 11/7/2019 8:45 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thursday, November 7, 2019 at 9:38:14 PM UTC-7, Brent wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 11/7/2019 8:06 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, November 7, 2019 at 8:47:15 PM UTC-7, Brent wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 11/7/2019 6:39 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thursday, November 7, 2019 at 6:25:37 PM UTC-7, Brent wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 11/7/2019 5:01 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> There is no paradox. It's just some hang up you have that a cat can't >>>>>> be dead and alive at the same time. It's as though your physics was >>>>>> stuck >>>>>> in the time of Aristotle and words were magic so that "Alive implies >>>>>> not-dead." was a law of physics instead of an axiom of logic. >>>>>> >>>>>> In fact a moments thought will tell you that quite aside from quantum >>>>>> mechanics there would be no way to identify the moment of death of the >>>>>> cat >>>>>> to less than a several seconds. It would be simply meaningless to say >>>>>> the >>>>>> cat was alive at 0913:20 and dead at 0913:21. >>>>>> >>>>>> Brent >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You can imagine a different experiment, without cats, with the same >>>>> paradoxical result. The point of Schroedinger's thought experiment was to >>>>> demonstate tHE title of this thread; that there's something wrong with >>>>> the >>>>> prevailing interpretation of superposition. In your view I am hung up >>>>> with >>>>> Aristotle? In my view, you're seduced by some quantum nonsense. AG >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Prevailing when? 1927? There is no problem in the prevailing 2019 >>>>> interpretation, except in your mind because you assume that a cat cannot >>>>> be >>>>> in a superposition of alive/dead even for a fraction of a >>>>> nano-second...because...WHY? The radioactive atom can be in a >>>>> superposition of decayed and not-decayed for a nanosecond. Why doesn't >>>>> that violate your Aristotelean logic? >>>>> >>>>> Brent >>>>> >>>> >>>> What's wrong with the interpretation that the radioactive atom is >>>> either decayed OR undecayed with probabilities calculated by Born's Rule? >>>> AG >>>> >>>> >>>> Being in the quasi-classical state of either decayed or undecayed >>>> assumes the superposition of decayed and undecayed has decohered by >>>> interaction with the environment. The interactions that produce >>>> decoherence all proceed at less than the speed of light, so it is not >>>> instantaneous. So the atom and the cat are no different...except the time >>>> for which one can keep them isolated from the environment. >>>> >>>> Brent >>>> >>> >>> Maybe isolation is an idealization which never exists in nature. That >>> would put this issue to bed. AG >>> >>> >>> Except that isolation admits of degrees, and interactions, even at the >>> speed of light, are not instantaneous. The atomic nucleus is relatively >>> isolated. That's why the environment has no measurable effect on its >>> half-life. >>> >>> Brent >>> >> >> But once decoherence occurs, it's never reversed. It's permanent. So >> nothing can be isolated, not even the atomic nucleus. AG >> >> >> But decoherence doesn't occur *at *the nucleus. It's an interaction of >> the nucleus with the environment. The alpha particle or whatever tunnels >> out in order to interact with the Geiger counter. But the probability of >> tunneling is very low per unit time. That's what I mean by "isolated", a >> low probability of interaction. >> >> Brent >> > > Doesn't decoherence occur when the nucleus forms? It can't form in > isolation from the universe. AG >
And each particle constituent of the nucleus becomes entangled with the environment when it's created. I am open to criticisms, but I see this as the solution to the superposition problem. Nothing is isolated. It's just an unrealistic idealization which leads to paradoxes. AG -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/58aaad44-0eb7-4b6a-aab7-e133757b6c36%40googlegroups.com.
