On Monday, January 13, 2020 at 3:13:57 AM UTC-7, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > > Le lun. 13 janv. 2020 à 11:10, Alan Grayson <[email protected] > <javascript:>> a écrit : > >> >> >> On Monday, January 13, 2020 at 2:54:48 AM UTC-7, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Le lun. 13 janv. 2020 à 10:50, Alan Grayson <[email protected]> a >>> écrit : >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Monday, January 13, 2020 at 2:38:57 AM UTC-7, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Le lun. 13 janv. 2020 à 10:28, Alan Grayson <[email protected]> a >>>>> écrit : >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Monday, January 13, 2020 at 1:33:01 AM UTC-7, stathisp wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 at 13:48, Alan Grayson <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 8:58:06 AM UTC-7, John Clark wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 2:30 AM Alan Grayson <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *> If we're convinced it's finite in age, then it can't be >>>>>>>>>> infinite in spatial extent. AG * >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We don't know for sure our universe is infinite in size and we'll >>>>>>>>> never know for sure because we'll never be able to measure precisely >>>>>>>>> zero >>>>>>>>> curvature with no error at all, but we do know it's pretty damn flat, >>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>> it's curved it's so slight that a light beam would have to go at >>>>>>>>> least 500 >>>>>>>>> times as far as our telescopes can see for it to return where it >>>>>>>>> started. >>>>>>>>> So if you respect the empirical evidence for the Big Bang but the >>>>>>>>> idea of a >>>>>>>>> beginning of a infinitely sized universe makes you unhappy then the >>>>>>>>> Multiverse idea offers you an obvious solution, you get an infinitely >>>>>>>>> large >>>>>>>>> infinitely old Multiverse but with the observable universe having a >>>>>>>>> beginning and being only finitely large. However I understand the >>>>>>>>> Multiverse makes you unhappy too. I fear you may be destined to be >>>>>>>>> unhappy. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> By the way ... does the inverse also make you unhappy, something >>>>>>>>> infinitely old but finite in spatial extent? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> John K Clark >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *All the models pictorially represented, have the Universe >>>>>>>> beginning very small, and inflation is claimed to increase its size >>>>>>>> from, >>>>>>>> say, much smaller than a proton, to about the size of the Earth or >>>>>>>> Solar >>>>>>>> System in a few Planck intervals. If it begins small, or if you run >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> clock backward it becomes progressively smaller, how could it have >>>>>>>> started >>>>>>>> with infinite spatial extent? Don't you see something wrong with the >>>>>>>> model? AG* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The model says that a subset of the universe starts small and gets >>>>>>> bigger. This is not inconsistent with the whole universe starting and >>>>>>> remaining infinite in spatial extent. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Stathis Papaioannou >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *I thought I made that clear; what I am calling "the universe" is >>>>>> precisely the SUBSET you refer to, which starts small and gets bigger. >>>>>> It >>>>>> is THAT SUBSET which cosmologists claim has infinite spatial extent, >>>>>> based >>>>>> on measurements. What you're calling "the whole universe" includes the >>>>>> underlying entity on which the BB started, and on which measurements >>>>>> CANNOT >>>>>> be made. It could be infinite in spatial extent, or is possibly an >>>>>> entity >>>>>> for which the concept of spatial extent might not exist. AG* >>>>>> >>>>> >>> And so what do you see not contradictory in the existence of the >>> universe itself ? Either it has always been, or not, and if not, that makes >>> no sense. I see nothing contradictory to have something infinite, so it >>> could always has been infinite in content, seeing it as zero volume is a >>> mistake because that presuppose a volume in another space. What I'm saying >>> is that there was infinite content (and still is) but all metrics (space) >>> was of zero extends, and inflation extended the "space" not the content. >>> >> >> *I don't think you understand the issue I've raised; namely, if our >> bubble has a finite age and is expanding, it must be finite in spatial >> extent since the expansion rate is finite. But a flat universe, claimed by >> most, maybe all cosmologists, is infinite in spatial extent. How could it >> start infinite in spatial extent, yet be tiny in the beginning? I conclude >> that our universe, that is, our bubble (which doesn't include the >> substratum from which it arose), must be spherical and closed. AG* >> > > If the content was infinite, but space metric inflated from zero to > something, the result is still infinite and space arise, as there was an > infinity of space whose metric got bigger, there is still infinity after > inflation, just more empty space in between matter. >
*Forget about matter. I am discussing spatial extent. If it starts small, and expands at any rate less than infinite, its spatial extent cannot be infinite. AG * > >>> Anyway, in the end, there can't be an explanation which make sense. The >>> fact we're here in the first place being able to ask question is magical. >>> >>> Quentin >>> >>>> >>>>> As the bigbang is a singularity at the start... what prevents it to >>>>> contain an infinite content in a zero/small volume, after all it's a >>>>> singularity and we know only things after the big bang started ? and >>>>> after >>>>> inflation (which I understand is only space metric which inflate), there >>>>> is >>>>> still an infinite content. >>>>> >>>> >>>> *The BB is only a singularity as far as GR is concerned, because GR >>>> fails at that point in time. When we have a better theory, the alleged >>>> singularity at T = 0 will go away. What you call "infinite content in >>>> zero/ >>>> small volume" makes no sense, which is why we call this condition is >>>> called >>>> a singularity! How could the content be space, if you've have zero or >>>> small >>>> volume. This idea is immediately, and obviously, self contradictory. AG * >>>> >>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/c9a07678-7721-4d68-ba7a-ea0b3455c4d7%40googlegroups.com >>>>>> >>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/c9a07678-7721-4d68-ba7a-ea0b3455c4d7%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>>>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a31f806e-0b3c-4bc3-a6d9-5b1543f11918%40googlegroups.com >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a31f806e-0b3c-4bc3-a6d9-5b1543f11918%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] <javascript:>. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/692e04e2-eec2-4c8d-aca7-011087e41608%40googlegroups.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/692e04e2-eec2-4c8d-aca7-011087e41608%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > > > -- > All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy > Batty/Rutger Hauer) > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/cc5859b7-b77f-44fa-9819-ec1077b5cd23%40googlegroups.com.
