On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 11:57:09 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 29 Jan 2020, at 12:03, Lawrence Crowell <[email protected] > <javascript:>> wrote: > > On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 6:12:31 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 1/28/2020 8:10 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> > >> > Aristotle: Reality is what we see. >> > Plato: what we see might be the shadow of a simpler reality >> > (mathematical, musical, theological, …). >> > >> > Science is really born from that important platonic doubt. >> >> Nonsense. Religious mysticism was born from platonic doubt. Science was >> already born in the school of Thales of Miletus. Aristotle at least >> believed that observation was a source of knowledg; while platonists >> depreacted it as illusory shadows of reality. St Agustine made >> Platonism Christian and Thomas Aquinas made Aristotleanism Christian, >> and those two, with the power of the Church behind them dominated >> Western intellectual thought for nine centuries, known as "The Dark >> Ages" for a good reason. > > > In spite of the problems with Platonism and Aristotelianism I don't think > they are that pernicious. Plato, who we really have a vague idea about, may > have been a central man and he came up with some mathematics of the > polytopes in 3-dimensions. These were the regular polytopes of the > tetrahedron, which is self dual, the cube dual to the octahedron and the > dodecahedron dual to the icosahedron. He was a follower of Socrates, and > all we know of Socrates was written by Plato. In these writings he came up > with this idea about the relationship between physical reality and the > epistemic domain of mathematics. We really do not know much more and it is > very likely, as in the tradition of scribes in the ancient world, much of > his writings, *Symposia, Euthryphro* etc, have a heavy contribution from > his circle of associates. It is possible that Plato is a place name for > followers of Socrates and all attributed to Plato were written by the > "Platonists." Much the same is probably the case with Pythagoras and his > cult-like followers called the Pythagoreans. The Bible has much the same, > and the various books of the Bible with names are written heavily by > follower scribes writing in that name. With Aristotle there is more reason > to think his writings are central to a better known figure. While > Aristotle's ideas of physics are wrong in many ways, they are in some ways > a bit more rational than what Plato came up with. > > > OK. > > > > Some writers of the New Testament were knowledgeable of Plato and > Aristotle, The Gospel of John is very Platonic and curiously the Book of > Revelations attributed to John is Aristotelian. This elevated Plato and > Aristotle to great heights, while Thales, Democrates etc were eclipsed. > This intertwining of Plato and Aristotle with Christianity is what brought > these philosophies so deeply into mysticism. > > > > The more mystic, the less wrong they are, at least if we compare with the > mathematical theology of the universal machine, that I described in detail > in most of my papers. > > To be sure, by Plato, I mean the Plato of the Parmenides and the > Theaetetus, a bit of the Republic and the Timaeus. Plato was just a > researcher, he use Socrates to make dialog. > > Unlike Gerson (a scholar expert on Plato) I do not identify Plato with > Socrates. And I “correct” every details through the universal machine > interpretation of “reality”. As this is pure mathematics, it helps to get > the coherent picture, even if some people dislike the idea that the theory > of everything is just elementary arithmetic (or Turing equivalent), but > this at least explains consciousness, qualia, quanta and their relations, > without adding any non necessary magic. Is it true? No scientist can know. > But we can test it experimentally, and QM confirms the most (annoying? > Startling?) aspect of Mechanism, notably the many-histories *aspect* of > reality, the quantum threshold, the quantum logics, etc. > > I will make a post about how I see now the way space appears, It is not > easily, I need the full 4 + 4*infinity modes of machine self-reference. > > What people misses here the most is the “simple” fact that elementary > arithmetic is Turing-Universal, and the existence of all halting and non > halting computations, including their redundancy and relative measure, is > an arithmetical reality (well above the computable part of it). The very > thing that I have been asked to removed from my thesis as judged to be to > much simple to figure in a thesis (which is nonsense, as in an > interdisciplinary thesis: nothing is evident, and everything must be > explained, and all hypotheses must be made explicit). Since then, except > professional logicians (and even just among those knowing theoretical > computer science), very few people seems to get this “simple” point, > already made by Gödel 1931, in some footnote though. > > Bruno > > > Plato did write the death of Socrates and the accounts of Timaeus, Euthyphro et al and symposia. So Plato clearly had a connection with Socrates' "Academe," even if Plato really should turn out to be a fictional character, a bit like Bourbaki in mathematics.
Gödel considered himself a Platonist. He saw the existence of true and unprovable propositions or new axioms as some sort of objective aspect to mathematics. Other just say this is a sort of relationship system for different models in mathematics. LC > > > > > LC > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] <javascript:>. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/98be4e4e-d26c-4301-88e4-95914aa57064%40googlegroups.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/98be4e4e-d26c-4301-88e4-95914aa57064%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/0a0e84c0-96a1-4003-bcd5-1337ab2ae989%40googlegroups.com.
