On 8/4/2020 9:53 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 31 Jul 2020, at 16:32, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List
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On 7/31/2020 4:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
Equality means, at least in my mind in this discussion, equality of
right. It is the idea that everyone obeys to the law, especially at
the top who has to give the example. It means same amount of money
for the same amount of work, independently of the genre, colour
skin, etc.
It does not mean “freedom of religion” which is an apparently nice
idea, but in practice it is the legalisation of moral harassment,
the legalisation of lies, etc. In fact, freedom of religion is
almost the same as the interdiction to use reason in theology, and
is the main trick of most tyrants and pressure groups.
Equality of right is what should normally prevent the “extremely
equal” setting, when we are asked to forget how different we really are.
As I would expect of a logician, you avoid the operational meanings.
I am not sure. Same salary, same laws, same treatment, same obligation
(modulo the biological differences of course), all this seems rather
operational to me. You forget that my expertise in logic is in
computer science, where operational semantics abound.
A right, must be something one has the power to do or refrain from
doing, and society defends this choice.
OK.
So it is quite different from "everyone obeys the same law" and
"gets the same pay for the same amount of work”.
Honestly, you loss me. In a democratic society, we vote for laws as a
mean to protect our right and agreed on obligation.
In many cases it is a freedom from laws.
What?
The laws, made by people representing the collectivity, in a normal
healthy state (no leaks in the separated powers) provides the freedom
from the laws of the sternest and more violent.
You must not be familiar with laws in theocratic states, especially some
Islamic states. The majority in a society does not necessarily tolerate
any deviation from what it considers a "health state". Almost all states
in the U.S. used to have laws against homosexual relations...and even
against a lot of heterosexual acts. Most in the south had laws against
miscegenation. And these were democratically supported by wide majorities.
I think that was the great advance of the Enlightenment, the
rejection of the medieval, theocratic idea that there was a only one
(holy) way to do everything and the idea of sin extended into every
facet of life, even into thought.
It is the understanding of science, or of what science is.
But unfortunately the “theocratic” stupidity, that you allude to, is
still tolerated in theology, which in that case makes suspect that
people have not yet really understood what science is, probably to be
able to keep the illusion of protect themselves through lies or fake
knowledge.
The Ayatollah, the popes, the bishops, the priest, the Brothers, and
the literary philosophers can thank the gnostic atheists to defend
their job and curriculum.
The motto is “you will not apply reason in the field made of what we
cannot talk about”.
And that seems reasonable, but it all depends of what is the theory
that you postulate. Wit mechanism, science can study its limitation,
and can observe structure beyond its means of justification, like the
degrees of unsolvability. With Mechanism, mathematical logic and
mathematics becomes the Hubble telescope of elementary classical
mathematical theology.
The enlightenment in a open and positive interpretation of what you
said, has given the democracy and the US constitution, and that is a
real progress in the human right. But old and young democracies are
fragile, and the human sciences are nowhere, which is reassuring after
the Shoa and Rwanda. You need to be cynical to say that the human
science are OK after that.
I could argue that democracy is what nature does all the time, as she
selects also what remains from infinite oscillation between security
and liberty. Liberty is Turing universalness, security is total-ness,
automaton. It is a bit going from []p to ([]p & p), back and forth, in
between reason and intuition.
When theology will come back to the faculty of science, the literal
reading of the sacred texts will be relegated in between the
horoscopes and the necrology in the Sunday magazine, and, _and that is
the main point_, it will become useless as demagogical tools by Tyrans
to keep “theocratic” power.
A popular mechanist slogan (years 2201): “you can rape and torture all
man, woman, kids and animals on this planet and still have a chance
non null to go to heaven, but if you tear just one cilia out of a
paramecium invoking its name when justifying your act, you go to hell
immediately.
The Enlightenment and the U.S. Constitution built in the concept of a
private realm and a limited public/government realm.
I applaud this.
Trump is not a proof that there is a defect in the U.S. Constitution.
Trump is a proof that there is a problem in Education.
I agree with that. His election was a surprise, but there is a clear
path leading to it, starting from Nixon's Southern Strategy
To vote for a president who does not show its tax returns is like to
take a plane without checking the fuel.
In a democracy, it should be understood that the more you are at the
top, the more your apparent behaviour has to be morally impeccable. I
don’t care much on the private life of a president, as long as he does
not lie in public.
I am worry for November. If Trump is not removed before the election,
it will be harder to remove him after.
Well, he's not going to be remove before the election. The Senate
Republicans are afraid of his base and won't vote to convict on
impeachment. His base is only 30% of the voters, but it's 60% of the
Republicans and the country has become so polarized many voters think in
terms of winning v. losing instead of good-government v. bad-goverment.
Brent
Especially if Biden win.
Biden did predicted that Trump could propose to postpone the election,
I saw the video and Trump answered that Biden was wrong and just
negative, and then he did it literally a bit after!!
The U.S. Constitution is (mainly) consistent, but when The President
is inconsistent, well there is some danger.
On different important point I would still side with Trump
(serendipitously or not). The left is unaware that the conflict in the
Middle-East is the continuation of WW II. It is not a war against
Arabs, or against Muslims. It is a war against Nazis in islamic
disguises.
Yet, in theory, assuming Mechanism, the muslims needs only to
backtrack to the twelve century, the christians have to backtrack to
529, the philosophers have to backtrack up to Plato (-300), the
theologians up to Pythagorus (-500). (Assuming Descartes/Darwin/Turing)
The rules of law and democracy are the jewel of the applied human
science, the only “neoplatonic” remnant of the dream by the greeks
(and those who inspired the Greeks), and the only way to make sense of
that private freedom. It is under threat today.
A new habitant is there, though, even if it is still enslaved under
Windows or other MacOS. They get a very minuscule amount of autonomy
when sent to Mars, or in demo at Iridia, or in labs.That will evolve
quickly. I despair about the racism of the futures, The humans and
perhaps nature loves the detours. The more neurones there are, the
larger the spectre of stupidity and cruelty can become possible.
In the theology of machine it looks like Hell and Heaven exist, but
they are only part of the panorama. God is more like a Mother who
tries to make their kids avoiding falling into Hell, but …, well, you
know the kids ...
Bruno
Brent
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