> On 7 Aug 2020, at 00:52, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > <everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > 8 | DISCUSSION As hospitals around the globe have filled with patients with > COVID-19, front line providers remain without effective therapeutic tools to > directly combat the disease. The initial anecdotal reports out of China led > to the initial wide uptake of HCQ and to a lesser extent CQ for many > hospitalized patients with COVID-19 around the globe. As more data have > become available, enthusiasm for these medications has been tempered. Well > designed, large randomized controlled trials are needed to help determine > what role, if any, these medications should have in treating COVID-19 moving > forwards. While HCQ has in vitro activity against a number of viruses, it > does not act like more typical nucleoside/tide antiviral drugs. For instance, > HCQ is not thought to act on the critical viral enzymes including the > RNA-dependent RNA polymerase, helicase, or proteases. Despite in vitro > activity against influenza, in a large high quality randomized controlled > trial, it showed no clinical benefit, suggesting that similar discordance > between in vitro and in vivo observations is possible for SARS-CoV and > SARS-CoV-273 (Table 3). > > > Additionally, HCQ and especially CQ have cardiovascular and other risks, > particularly when these agents are used at high doses or combined with > certain other agents. While large scale studies have demonstrated that > long-term treatment with CQ or HCQ does not increase the incidence of > infection, caution should be exercised in extrapolating safety from the > studies of chronic administration to largely healthy individuals to estimate > the risk associated with short-course treatment in acutely and severely ill > patients. Furthermore, the immunologic actions that make HCQ an important > drug for the treatment of auto-immune diseases might have unintended > consequences when it is used for patients with COVID-19. The effects of this > immune modulation on patients with COVID-19 are unknown at this time, > including a potential negative impact on antiviral innate and adaptive immune > responses which need to be considered and studied. For all these reasons, and > in the context of accumulating preclinical and clinical data, we recommend > that HCQ only be used for COVID-19 in the context of a carefully constructed > randomized clinical trial. If this agent is used outside of a clinical trial, > the risks and benefits should be rigorously weighed on a case-by-case basis > and reviewed in light of both the immune dysfunction induced by the virus and > known antiviral and immune modulatory actions of HCQ. > > https://faseb.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.1096/fj.202000919 > <https://faseb.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.1096/fj.202000919>
Just to be sure, I have no problem with this. My point is just that today, there are studies indicating that HCQ might be slightly better than Remdesevir, and that the Media are wrong when mocking Trump on HCQ in some systematic way. Most people in the virology community defending HCQ are not favorable to the preventive use of HCQ, and propose precise protocol to be used, and actually, claims that it asks for a higher doze than its usual use, justifying a medical prescription. Only doctors could use it. And yes, that can have advert effect, but according to Raoult, they are slightly less severe than the one accompanying Remdesevir. Some Media makes me nervous because they argument seems to be just “Trump said x” so x is stupid”, which is of course a stupid argument, even if without any other information it makes some abductive sense (I do not disagree with Clark on this). Now, I would not take any statement made by the FDA for granted, as they have nothing to envy in Trump’s prowess in the art of lying… Here there is a general point: a president or any politician should never mention by name a medication or an health treatment. That should be in the hand of the people and the physicians or shaman. The founders got it right: "If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who lives under Tyranny." -- Thomas Jefferson. "Prohibition... goes beyond the bound of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded" -Abraham Lincoln. Bruno > > Brent > > On 8/6/2020 2:52 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote: >> If you are saying that Hydro either works or it doesn't I am in total >> agreement. The main thing since March has been not hydro, by itself, but in >> combination with zinc, which has long been used for the proverbial common >> cold, (sometimes works!) and even pneumonia's. Getting zinc in the cells is >> the claim. By itself, hydroxychloroquine is jack. Now, if hydro + zinc is >> ineffective, then screw it. The campaign against hydroxychloroquine is not >> medical science, but the technique of US political theorist, Saul Alinsky: >> 6. “A good tactic is one your people enjoy.” They’ll keep doing it without >> urging and come back to do more. They’re doing their thing, and will even >> suggest better ones. >> >> Now the best thing is to find drugs that really work in fighting the >> infection, and yes, finally some vaccines! Beyond this, it is worth it for >> me as a taxpayer, to pay the billionaire pharma boards of directors all the >> cash they need (want) to give us all a break. This would be worth a tax >> increase if needed. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: PGC <multiplecit...@gmail.com> <mailto:multiplecit...@gmail.com> >> To: Everything List <everything-list@googlegroups.com> >> <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com> >> Sent: Thu, Aug 6, 2020 6:00 am >> Subject: Re: Sharpiegate >> >> >> >> On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 11:33:37 AM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 31 Jul 2020, at 22:06, spudboy100 via Everything List >>> <everyth...@googlegroups. com <>> wrote: >>> >>> You really must read up on your history more Bruno, That term comes from >>> the nazis and not I. Here is a 2015 Scientific American article reviewing a >>> book by Philip Ball, The Struggle for the Soul of Physics. >>> https://www. scientificamerican.com/ article/how-2-pro-nazi- >>> nobelists-attacked-einstein-s- jewish-science-excerpt1/ >>> <https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-2-pro-nazi-nobelists-attacked-einstein-s-jewish-science-excerpt1/> >>> >>> I am accusing the politicization of medical science >> >> That has been aggravated by the “marijuana conspiracy”. The book by Jack >> Herer remains a chef-d’oeuvre of investigation. He cites all its sources, >> and I have verified all of them. >> >> The problem is that when we do money with medication, there is an incentive >> to make people sick, and to avoid efficacious medication. Like the slogan >> sum up well: a cured patient is a lost client... >> >> >> >> >>> and the observations of physicians who have claimed that hydro can be >>> helpful. >> >> I am not an expert to really judge this, but I know enough of logic to find >> mistakes in some critics against Didier Raoult (in France, a well-known >> pro-hydorxychoroquine). Then I learned that in many countries they are using >> hydroxychloroquine, with a success which seems better than with remdesivir. >> None of them are pananacea, and hydroxyhlorquine has to be used with a lot >> of care, at the benign of the infection, according to Didier Raoult. >> >> With your personal standards of effectiveness and that of guys like Raoult. >> Personally, I find that anything that doesn't satisfy the standards of >> randomized proper placebo controlled trial (even if for ethical reasons, you >> permit respirators etc. as standard of care for placebo) does not qualify as >> effective beyond doubt. If such trials properly conducted and controlled >> were to prove HCQ as effective, I would change my view. >> >> Sure, if people want to take it with these nuances in mind, then no problem. >> What is concerning is the sense of false hope (and cash extracted from >> patients from drug makers and doctors) in the argumentation that this >> "really" has significant or sufficient effectiveness, when such trials are >> not completed as of today to my knowledge and people remain largely unaware >> of the nuances/degrees of effectiveness. In this kind of uninformed, >> hysterical environment, the argument can be made that Raoult is acting >> irresponsibly, as people are largely unable to differentiate on >> effectiveness and he uses his expert status to advance what is still a >> personal view until arguably higher standards of trials/effectiveness prove >> or disprove the claim. PGC >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >> <mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/79488e75-1598-4a56-a69a-bf2cd269b2a2o%40googlegroups.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/79488e75-1598-4a56-a69a-bf2cd269b2a2o%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >> <mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/19925629.910360.1596750766738%40mail.yahoo.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/19925629.910360.1596750766738%40mail.yahoo.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > <mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/6e978ea6-675b-8c1e-75b9-bde55359f7c7%40verizon.net > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/6e978ea6-675b-8c1e-75b9-bde55359f7c7%40verizon.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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