[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> On Behalf Of Jason Resch Friday, October 16, 2020 2:42 AM Subject: Re: Stenger on Initial Low Entropy [Philip Benjamin] "Is consciousness continuous or discrete? Maybe it's both, argue researchers?, asks Michel Herzong et al. They refer to the "Zombie within". Augustine, the chief architect of Western Civilization, raised the same question in the 4-th Century. The "Zombie within" has got to be non-entropic, if it is immortal. That is discussed t in the following post:
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: RE: News: Is consciousness continuous or discrete? Maybe it's both, argue researchers [Michel Herzong, Leila Drili-Daoudi, and Adrien Doerig]. Trends in Cognitive Sciences, "All in good time: long-lasting postdictive effects reveal discrete perception" https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tics.2020.07.001 " Two major theories have fueled a now 1,500 year-long debate started by Saint Augustine: Is consciousness continuous, where we are conscious at each single point in time, or is it discrete, where we are conscious only at certain moments of time? In an Opinion published September 3, in the journal Trends in Cognitive Sciences, psychophysicists answer this centuries-old question with a new model, one that combines both continuous moments and discrete points of time. In psychology, research has focused less on how long a conscious percept lasts. Rather it has asked whether we are conscious at all times or only at certain discrete moments of time". [Philip Benjamin] Herzong's "zombie within", or Augustine's "inner man" or Plato's "soul" are all ideas based on dualism which is not relevant today in the light of "dark-matter" and its possible chemistry. Astrophysical light-matter is mostly H and He, while biophysical light-matter consists of 92+ elements of the Periodic Table. Similarly, astrophysical dark-matter may correspond to mostly H and He, while biophysical dark-matter (or bio dark-matter) may correspond to 92+ elements. Human body is made of light-matter and its chemistry. It is electric, entropic, and mortal. Human "self" (or soul) is made of dark-matter and its chemistry. If "Self" is made of dark-matter via its chemistry, the "Self" is nonelectric, nonentropic, conscious and immortal. The "Light & Dark" twin bodies are cocreated at the moment of conception. Sub atomic particles of dark-matter may be monopoles, axions and/or neutrinos with negligible masses relative to electrons, but with the same mass ratios as in light-matter atoms. Chemistry means chemical bonds which are spin-governed subatomic particle configurations of duets & octets. This leads to ordinary physicality of light matter with its chemistry and extraordinary physicality of dark-matter with its chemistry. Dualism is a moot point here. Neither Plato nor Augustine had the benefits of the knowledge of dark-matter and its chemistry. However, it is not excusable today for any reasonable physical scientist to ignore the two different forms of physicality. Resonance between the twin bodies is the basis of self-awareness. Resonance is rudimentary recognition. This involves natural frequencies and therefore will be a continuous process. The non-entropic self is immortal, but the "Self" itself may be a twin composite, one made of one kind of dark-matter (the three flavors of neutrinos) and the other of a different kind (axions and monopoles). The difference by an order of magnitude across the taxa of biophoton emission rates have been discussed elsewhere including the publication "Spiritual Body or Physical Spirit". The missing bio-mass in the growth and death of organisms (California worms) in hermetically sealed tubes has bee reported by Amrit Sorli (Journal of Theoretics Vol.4-2 The Additional Mass of Life By Dott Ing and Amrit Sorli; https://core.ac.uk/display/21767122). Best regards Philip Benjamin CC. Michel Herzong, Ph.D., École Polytechnique, Switzerland Notes: Most ancient philosophers, including 4- th Century Augustine, considered human being as a compound of body and soul. The soul is both the life-giving element and the center of consciousness, perception and thought. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/augustine/ "How can soul fulfil its task of "governing" the body (cf. De quantitate animae 22) if it is incorporeal itself? And how are corporeal and psychic aspects related to each other in phenomena that involve both body and soul, especially if, like passions and desires, these are morally relevant? These problems are further complicated by the Platonic axiom that incorporeal entities, being ontologically prior to corporeal ones, cannot be causally affected by them. Augustine's solution is indebted to Plotinus' strategy of making the relation of the soul to the bodily affections an essentially cognitive one". According to Prof. Herzong, "Unconscious processing is continuous but conscious precepts are restricted to certain short moments of time.... Change cannot be perceived immediately. It can only be perceived after it has happened..... It's the unconscious zombie within us that has excellent spatial/temporal resolution," Herzog says. .... The thoughts and surroundings are unconsciously updated, and your conscious self uses the updates to see if they make sense. If not, then you change your route. Conscious processing is overestimated". The dark unconscious processing period is more weighty. One just believes in being conscious at each moment of time. "Conversely, the idea of discrete perception , the concept that humans are only conscious at certain moments in time, does not define the duration of these discrete moments. http://augnet.org/en/works-of-augustine/his-spiritual-tradition/2238-interiority/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/fernandezelizabeth/2020/09/06/is-consciousness-continuous-like-a-movie-or-discrete-like-a-flipbook/#69052bf53101 http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm#10 http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm#11 https://infidels.org/library/modern/andrew_melnyk/physicalism.html Melnyk, Andrew (2007). A Case for Physicalism about the Human Mind However, scientists, philosophers, and neuroscientists have debated this for 1,500 years. St. Augustine, one of the great early philosophers of the mind, pondered how we could be present in short periods of time, but yet still perceive motion. Even farther back the Abhidharma school of Buddhism discussed discrete events of consciousness rather than a continual flow. https://scit echdaily.com/is-consciousness-continuous-or-discrete-scientists-think-its-both/ https://neurosciencenews.com/consciousn ess-continuous-discrete-16958/<https://neurosciencenews.com/consciousn%20ess-continuous-discrete-16958/> https://voegelinview.com/paradox-consciousness-augustines-confessions-voegelinian-reading-part/ https://sites.google.com/site/hollysrevisionofreligion/home/religious-ethics/ethical-theory/conscience/augustine-of-hippo-and-his-view-of-the-conscience ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2020 9:23 PM To: Consciousness <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; Cognitive NeuroScience <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Cognitive Neuroscience Forum] News: Is consciousness continuous or discrete? Maybe it's both, argue researchers Is consciousness continuous or discrete? Maybe it's both, argue researchers by Cell Press Credit: Pixabay/CC0 Public Domain Two major theories have fueled a now 1,500 year-long debate started by Saint Augustine: Is consciousness continuous, where we are conscious at each single point in time, or is it discrete, where we are conscious only at certain moments of time? In an Opinion published September 3 in the journal Trends in Cognitive Sciences, psychophysicists answer this centuries-old question with a new model, one that combines both continuous moments and discrete points of time. "Consciousness is basically like a movie. We think we see the world as it is, there are no gaps, there is nothing in between, but that cannot really be true," says first author Michael Herzog, a professor at the Ecole Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne (EPFL) in Switzerland. "Change cannot be perceived immediately. It can only be perceived after it has happened." Because of its abstract nature, scientists have struggled to define conscious and unconscious perception. What we do know is that a person moves from unconsciousness to consciousness when they wake up in the morning or awake from anesthesia. Herzog says that most philosophers subscribe to the idea of continuous conscious perception-because it follows basic human intuition-"we have the feeling that we're conscious at each moment of time." On the other hand, the less-popular idea of discrete perception, which pushes the concept that humans are only conscious at certain moments in time, falls short in that there is no universal duration for how long these points in time last. Herzog and co-authors Leila Drissi-Daoudi and Adrien Doerig take the benefits of both theories to create a new, two-stage model in which a discrete conscious percept is preceded by a long-lasting, unconscious processing period. "You need to process information continuously, but you cannot perceive it continuously." Imagine riding a bike. If you fell and waited every half-second to respond, there would be no way to catch yourself before hitting the ground. However, if you pair short conscious moments with longer periods of unconscious processing where the information is integrated, your mind tells you what you have perceived, and you catch yourself. "It's the zombie within us that drives your bike-an unconscious zombie that has excellent spatial/temporal resolution," Herzog says. At each moment, you will not be saying to yourself, "move the bike another 5 feet." The thoughts and surroundings are unconsciously updated, and your conscious self uses the updates to see if they make sense. If not, then you change your route. "Conscious processing is overestimated," he says. "You should give more weight to the dark, unconscious processing period. You just believe that you are conscious at each moment of time." The authors write that their two-stage model not only solves the 1,500-year-old philosophical problem but gives new freedom to scientists in different disciplines. "I think it helps people to completely fuel information processing for different prospects because they don't need to translate it from when an object is presented directly to consciousness," Herzog says. "Because we get this extra dimension of time to solve problems, if people take it seriously and if it is true, that could change models in neuroscience, psychology, and potentially also in computer vision." Though this two-stage model could add to the consciousness debate, it does leave unanswered questions such as: How are conscious moments integrated? What starts unconscious processing? And how do these periods depend on personality, stress, or disease, such as schizophrenia? "The question for what consciousness is needed and what can be done without conscious? We have no idea," says Herzog. Explore further How the brain produces consciousness in 'time slices' ---------------------------------------------------------- More information: Trends in Cognitive Sciences, Herzong, Drissi-Daoudi, and Doerig: "All in good time: long-lasting postdictive effects reveal discrete perception" www.cell.com/trends/cognitive-<http://www.cell.com/trends/cognitive-> . 1364-6613(20)30170-4 , DOI: 10.1016/j.tics.2020.07.001 Journal information: Trends in Cognitive Sciences Provided by Cell Press https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-09-consciousness-discrete.html Posted by Robert -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/SA0PR11MB47049C744D5399EF4E88C310A8030%40SA0PR11MB4704.namprd11.prod.outlook.com.
