It is the first time I hear that cannabis impairs the mathematical abilities. You might give reference, and I hope it contains a comparison with chocolate, alcohol, etc. Without such comparison, anyone can find that anything impair mathematical (or whatever) studies, but usually such studies are not quite serious, or just pretext to not study. If you like mathematics, there is some chance that cannabis will help, and if you don't like mathematics, there is a lot of chance cannabis will *not* help. The question if consciousness requires material substrate is not a question of liking this or not. If Indexical Digital Mechanism is assumed, there is simply no choice: the material appearances must be explained without invoking any ontological commitment. We need to separate truth from what we want. It usually does not match easily. It is the separation of theology from science which makes people believe that the religious truth is a matter of choice. This is eventually used by people who want to freeze the field for their special interest. The god/non-god debate is a trick by materialist (believer in some fundamental substance) to make us forget that the original questions in theology was about the existence of a primary physical universe. To simplify, the question was should we invest in mathematics or in physics when we search the simplest ontology capable of explains all facts, or as much as possible facts?
Bruno On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 10:21:41 PM UTC+2 [email protected] wrote: > My only concern about cannabis is the study that it did impair > mathematical abilities. That is about it for me. In a few areas of the US, > legal cannabis has been permitted. Which doesn't stop the thugsters from > selling it illegally, under price. That is a social issue and not a medical > one. On whether consciousness requires a material substrate, I have no > preference, because honestly it is not up to me. It's the universe, I just > work here. On the other hand I do hold with the idea of taking whatever > advantage, even neuro-chemical, of the knowledge of anything the facts > provides? The Beyond 1492 project likely needs funding, and I suspect that > computer science, eventually, will provide for such a adaptation. My > feeling is we don't need more religions to benefit us, but instead mental > apps based on whatever facts we can uncover, be it flesh or spirit? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> > To: Everything List <[email protected]> > Sent: Wed, Jul 21, 2021 6:32 am > Subject: Re: Hitler against Godel's Theorem > > There are some relations. Note that "my theory" is just Descartes theory, > and it can be found in old Indian text too, or Chinese text. It probably > exists since an ape use a piece of wood to extend its arm, and it is the > "simplest" theory of mind and matter since long. now, its digital version > comes from the discovery of the universal machine in arithmetic (Turing, > Kleene, Post, ...) and it entails the reversal physics/theology, or > physics/theology (using the original sense of the greek). So, I don't want > this to look as if I was bragging, but the key is that I have no theory, > just a theorem, with a constructive proof making Digital and Indexical > Mechanism testable (Digital means we use the Church-Thesis, and Indexical > means that the assumption is personal "*I* say "yes" for the digital > body/brain transplant). Schmidhuber has participated to this list, and the > problem for him was that all finite sequence is predictable leading to some > doubt on the first person indeterminacy, a bit like Clark and Bruce Kellet > today). That problem is not serious, as the point is that in Helsinki (if > you remember) you cannot write in the prediction diary, neither W, nor M, > but only (W v M) if you want the prediction validated by the two > reconstituted person. Than that first person indeterminacy extends to the > infinitely many computations in arithmetic, leading to a many-histories > interpretation (Brough by all universal numbers) of arithmetic. > > This result is shocking for the dogmatic believer in Aristotle theology, > with a materialist ontological commitment. There are many, as we are lied > on this since 1492 years, and when you see that cannabis is still schedule > one, despite the lies are recent and easily debunked, you can imagine that > materialism will remain with thus for sometime, but it will be abandoned by > lack of evidences, like vitalism has been abandoned in biology. > > When you understand that all computations are run in arithmetic, you > understand that the burden of proof is in the hand of those who claim to > have evidences for their material ontological commitment. Nevertheless, > Mechanism makes the dream argument rigorous, and eventually, Materialism is > shown to require some magic to make some computations more "real" than > others. The careful observations of Nature confirms mechanism, up to now. > My work shows how to test this, and why quantum physics confirmed the most > striking feature of digital mechanism. I dont know the truth, and my > meta-goal is to show that we can do theology with the scientific attitude, > including physical experimentation. This helps also to distinguish clearly > physics (the science of the observable and prediction) and > theology/metaphysics: the science questioning the nature of the fundamental > reality. > > Bruno > > On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 8:30:19 PM UTC+2 [email protected] wrote: > > Your theory strikes me of a related theory by Canadian philosopher, John > Leslie (Emeritus, Guelph University) who did the logic of "ethical > requiredness," for the universe, Plus he employs some of your > Neo-Platonism.* He also has employed the Bloc Universe in his writings, > using sort of Einstein's letter to the family of Michel Besso as a > condolence. Frame reference and all that. Leslie has termed himself an > atheist in the sense of no personal deity as you have stated below. > > > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337952476_Infinite_Minds_A_Philosophical_Cosmology > > *For that matter so does Swiss digital philosopher, Juergen Schmidhuber. > https://people.idsia.ch/~juergen/ > > Hope everyone whose system can take (I'd avoid the very young) gets vaxed? > Good luck. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> > To: Everything List <[email protected]> > Sent: Tue, Jul 20, 2021 3:46 am > Subject: Re: Hitler against Godel's Theorem > > Hmm... I just reply from the new mail address, but of course, I don't have > (yet) the permission. Some difficulties to change the setting. I copy my > answer directly on the webpage of this list. > > Hi spudboy100, > > Thanks! > Do we have the choice in what we are observing? > > Yes and No. To take the paradigmatic exemple, imagine that you are in > Helsinki, and you will be scanned, copy, destroyed, and reconstitute in > Washington and Moscow. For a third person observer looking at this, you are > in W and in M. From your (multiple) first person view, you feel that a > choice or a selection has been made, but that cannot possibly be "your > choice". Indeed in Helsinki you might desire to become the one in Moscow, > but the guy in Washington will illustrate that indeed it was not a question > of choice, unless he suicides himself immediately somehow. You could, when > still in Helsinki, write a letter, or a mail, to the people in Washington, > asking them to NOT make the reconstitution, making Moscow into a > "probability 1 by default", though, and this illustrates that making a > choice is a form of suicide. If you are in love with Alice and Eve, and > decide to marry Eve, it is somehow equivalent with killing the "you" who > would have lived with Alice. > In that sense, I answer "yes". We do have partial choice in observing or > moving in our life, and it is a sort of preselection among our (infinitely > many) futures. > Can we make better? I guess so. At least relatively to what you might > consider as better, for example by selection the option which maximize this > or that things that you might prefer, for you or for other you care about. > > With the "many-worlds", or "many-histories" or the non quantum (a priori) > "many-computations" in arithmetic, the quantum woo is minimized, in fact > the whole quantum is explained through the common "amoeba" first person > indeterminacy in arithmetic > You can see (Indexical, Digital) Mechanism as the hypothesis using the > less magic, in fact only the magic of mathematical logic or computer > science. No need of a magical personal-god, or impersonal-god, just > elementary arithmetic which execute all computations in the bloc-universe, > or better bloc-mindscape manner. Something we know, or should know, since > the 1930s. > > Bruno > > On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 3:57:45 AM UTC+2 [email protected] wrote: > > Just for confirmation, Bruno, you message has been received if not > completely comprehended by myself, but just as a saying "received" by your > email provider. My only thought might be is "Do we have a choice in what we > are observing?" Moreover, "if we somehow do, can we make better by > observing." Many would say this is quantum woo, and that is fine by me. The > follow up would be, mayhaps if we form a 'better node' say, of millions of > observer's we could fix things better? As in Quantum Woo style-all focus > upon the same thing? > > Probably not, so it's back to work for scientists and engineers.... > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> > To: Everything List <[email protected]> > Sent: Mon, Jul 19, 2021 9:07 am > Subject: Re: Hitler against Godel's Theorem > > I have answered this, but I don't find my answer. Penrose use Gödel's > theorem to argue that we are not machine, by a reasoning similar to one > already found, and refuted, by Emil Post, and later developed (wrongly) by > Lucas and Penrose. Eventually Penrose got it right, and that kind of > argument does not show that Gödel's incompleteness is a problem for > Mechanism, but it does show that a machine cannot know which machine she > is, nor which computations support it in arithmetic, which is indeed a step > in the reduction of the laws of physics to the statistics on all relative > computations in arithmetic. That explains why, after deriving the > phenomenology of the wave collapse from the Schroedinger equation, like > Everett did, it is still necessary to derive the wave equation from the > statistics on all computations (as seen from inside, which is the hard part > to define, except that it becomes easy once we get the theology of the > machine. > > The propositional machine theology G1* has been given here. It is the > modal logic with all theorem of G as axioms, + []A ->A, + p -> []p (for p > propositional letter), and importantly without the Necessitation rule. And > G is the (normal modal logic) with axiom []([]A -> A) -> []A (the Löb > formula). A normal modal theory has [](A->B) -> ([]A -> []B) as axioms, and > is closed for the Modus ponens and the necessitation rule. > > Then the logic of the observable is given by the modal logic of the > intensional variant, defined in G1(*) by the logic of []A & <>t & A, and > some related. > That gives a quantum logic for the observable by universal numbers in > arithmetic, naturally related to the many computations structure implied by > elementary arithmetic or Turing equivalent. > > More on this later. I am also testing the mail system, and if the > google-group still recognise my old adresses. > > Bruno > > On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 1:28:36 PM UTC+2 Lawrence Crowell wrote: > > It is Penrose's thesis that consciousness is a sort of Godel trick. Back > in the 1980s as an undergraduate I would have agreed with this, when I > started reading about this. I read Hofstadter's book "Godel, Escher, Bach" > and began pondering these things. I have however come to think there were > problems with this. It is clear humans are not consistent Turing machines > or computers. Computers are infernally consistent, and can compute > numerical sequences, but they do not make an inductive leap in saying the > set of natural numbers has infinite cardinality. Humans can rather easily > see the set is infinite and however make mistakes. > > LC > > On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 11:47:26 AM UTC-5 [email protected] wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 1, 2021 at 8:38 AM Lawrence Crowell <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Godel's theorems are our friend. It is even a friend in physics. With > physics I think it is a "sieve" that conforms physical principle to have > horizon conditions, whether uncertainty principles or event horizons in GR, > that conform physical reality to fit within the Church-Turing thesis. > > > Some claim Godel proved that the human mind is more than just a Turing > Machine, but I disagree. Godel found a way to use numbers to write a > sentence that talks about itself, it says "I am not provable in this formal > system", and the operations of a particular Turing Machine are analogous to > a formal system; however a human being can look at that sentence and see > that it is true even though the machine itself could never produce it, > therefore the human mind can do something the Turing machine can't. > However, what Godel proved is that an operating system powerful enough to > perform arithmetic THAT IS CONSISTENT cannot be complete, and he says no > operating system can prove its own consistency. But when human beings are > not doing formal logic exercises but just living everyday lives their > operating system is most certainly not consistent, they can have two > logically contradictory opinions at the same time, a brief glance at > politics shows it is very common. And humans can be absolutely positively > 100% certain about something, (that is to say they have proven it to their > own satisfaction), and still be dead wrong. Godel's biography illustrates > this point, he refused to eat and died of starvation because he was > absolutely positively 100% certain that his food was being poisoned. > > So we are inconsistent Turing machines. And even today we could easily > make a machine that could answer any question, provided you don't mind if > it sometimes gave an answer that was wrong or even idiotic. > > John K Clark > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/4bf6dfec-463c-4c37-a5a6-610065e03905n%40googlegroups.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/4bf6dfec-463c-4c37-a5a6-610065e03905n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/743e16ec-9358-4aa2-8461-eb048e3f24dfn%40googlegroups.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/743e16ec-9358-4aa2-8461-eb048e3f24dfn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/084b375d-c5bb-4cbc-8540-4c37e32e122bn%40googlegroups.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/084b375d-c5bb-4cbc-8540-4c37e32e122bn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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