On 11/14/2024 11:49 AM, Alan Grayson wrote:
On Thursday, November 14, 2024 at 12:06:23 PM UTC-7 Brent Meeker wrote:
On 11/13/2024 7:06 PM, Alan Grayson wrote:
Anything faster than light is instantaneous
in some reference frame; and goes in either
direction depending on the reference frame.
Which is a good reason for supposing no
information can be transmitted FoL.
Brent
That's one data point. Another is the fact that
neither member of an entangled pair has a
preexisting spin before measurement,
I know you mean no fixed spin direction before
measurement, but it does have a spin because when
you measure it you never get zero spin.
and that when one of a pair is measured, the other
seems to know that value is regardless of the
perceived separation distance.
The the way to look at is that there was only one
spin state from the beginning, when the pair was
created. They shared this value in Hilbert space.
Yes, I am aware of that. AG
Nothing "traveled" between them.
So it's reasonable to say we don't know what the
hell is going on. AG
We do know exactly what's going on. We get the
empirically correct prediction for every
experiment. It's just not a nursery story about
little balls. Five hundred years ago someone with
your attitude would be demanding to know what
spirit caused the measuring instrument needle to
move. You've just gotten used to mathematical
explanations involving little balls bouncing around
so you don't question Newtonian mathematics. You
need to update your intuition.
Brent
Then you must believe that EM waves are continuous
because ME's predict it?
Why should I when QM predicts otherwise and correctly
predicts things Maxwell's equations don't?
Should I update my intuition so it conforms to your
illusion;
No you should update your intuition so it conforms the
currently most accurate known theory.
namely, that you actually know what's going, and no
less than *exactly*? This is hubris in its purist form.
In fact, in this context you know nothing. You suffer
the illusion of thinking some reference to Hilbert
space vectors is somehow dispositive of the mystery. AG
An you think you can't know anything until it conforms
to your prejudices.
Brent
Can you cite any peer reviewed article on Bell experiments
which supports your opinion, that there's no mystery in the
results since each pair of entangled entities shares a
common vector in Hilbert space? AG
I didn't say there's "no mystery". I said we correctly
predict every experiment. My point is that there is no more
mystery than in say Newtonian gravity. When are you going to
answer my question, "What would you consider an answer that
eliminates the mystery?" Little green men?
Brent.
For Brent: IF, as you acknowledge, that a mystery remains
I did NOT acknowledge that. You seem deliberately obtuse. These
"mysteries" are "solved" by familiarity. If you feel Bell
experiments are mysterious I challenge you to name some possible
solution to the mystery.
Brent
Your words; "I didn't say there's "no mystery".
Which is not equivalent to "there is a mystery" except in your
unscientific world where there is never suspension of belief.
I said we correctly predict every experiment. My point is that there
is no more mystery than in say Newtonian gravity. When are you going
to answer my question, "What would you consider an answer that
eliminates the mystery?" Little green men?"
*Oh, I get it. TY. The mysteries are solved by familiarity. IOW, if
you look long enough at something you don't understand, the mysteries
disappear? *
*If you use it enough you absorb the solutions into your intuition. Do
you have intuitions about Newtonian gravity? About F=ma? Are they
mysterious? How about a little introspection.
Brent
*
*And if I can't solve the mystery -- possible faster than light
behavior -- I'm obtuse. You're in line for a Nobel. Let me be the
first to congratulate you. I suggest you go argue with Bruce. IIRC, he
thinks QM is non local. AG*
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