This forum should be 99% Exchange, when it is more like 30% it becomes pointless for the majority of subscribers. I am a professional who works with Exchange; I use this forum for work. It is the responsibility of those who wish to use the forum for personal purposes to take it off list.
It is not like this thread is a few day's old. I've made my point and I am not adding anything more to the list. If you have something to say to challenge my point of view, I would be happy to e-mail you directly. -----Original Message----- From: Jim Helfer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 10:10 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Truly. I would much rather read off-topic posts, which this list has a history and culture of tolerating, than have to read the "Quit posting off-topic messages" messages, which are off-topic themselves! Nathan, why not just "Sort by Conversation" topic, and then you can ignore it ? Really, probably the only thing that you are doing is causing people to killfile your "STOP" posts. It's much better to use your own sorting and killfiling abilities, than to make other people stop posting. There, that was a post about Outlook, which isn't Exchange either, but is generally considered on topic for this list. Funny how life's like that sometime, isn't it? Jim -----Original Message----- From: David, Andy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 12:22 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Who says? Feel free to ask for your money back, otherwise delete anything you don't like or unsub. If you really want this thread to die, stop responding to it. Besides, shouldn't you be preparing for the Rose Bowl? -----Original Message----- From: Boyd, Nathan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 12:20 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 This is not the platform for these type of debates. This is a professional forum about Exchange. http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=ethics Many forums will discuss this stuff, go somewhere more appropriate. If this forum were moderated these people would have received warnings by now. Nathan -----Original Message----- From: David, Andy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:15 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 You can always delete these emails if you arent interested. -----Original Message----- From: Boyd, Nathan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 12:14 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, You are wasting our time. How ethical is it to waste a bunch of professional's people's time, which have better things to be doing and reading. Reply to those that care. STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, STOP,STOP, -----Original Message----- From: Ken Cornetet [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:10 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Boy, I hate to jump in, but perhaps I can end this... Greg, in the absolute, you are correct. Accepting *anything* of *any* value whatsoever from third parties that stand to gain from your relationship to your client could be considered a breach of ethics - in the absolute. Even if the "gift" (title, free software, pencils..) does not influence, the perception of the relationship to the third party is still tainted. Note I say "could be". The crux is in the context. Does your client expect objectivity on your part? That is the critical difference. If an IT professional bills themselves as providing the very best vendor neutral solution, then accepting vendor gifts (even titles) could be considered a breach of ethics. Disclosure is another big factor. Has the relationship between you and the third party been disclosed to the client? For example, If I hire a lawyer to sue a company, I would every right to expect that the lawyer not be getting any gratuities whatsoever from that company. If the lawyer were receiving anything of value (even titles, which could enhance their status) from the company, that would be a breech of ethics. Furthermore, I'd expect any past relationship with the company be disclosed fully to me. Failure of this, even if the lawyer's performance wasn't actually swayed in the slightest, would still create a perception of impropriety. Now, if I call up the local Trane dealer for a new furnace, I certainly don't expect any objectivity on from him/her. It is not a problem if Trane has bestowed titles, free trips to the Bahamas, fish tacos, or any other gratuity to him/her. In fact, the more the better, since that means they are more than likely competent at what they do. I'd say IT consultants dealing with Exchange are in the second group. Most pitch MS solutions, and make no claims of objectivity. Also, when an IT professional uses something like Microsoft MVP after their name, that serves as a disclosure to the client that there is an existing relationship between the consultant and Microsoft. For sure ethics standards are a slippery beast and make for an ever changing landscape. It would be simpler if the whole world adopted the "not even the appearance of impropriety" standard, but that just isn't going to happen. Therefore, every profession defines, and continually redefines the "line" that divides ethical from unethical. -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 9:44 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 I will state this again for the 11 millionth and 1 time now. Accepting direct gifts from third parties, especially significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles, presents a real or perceived conflict of interest between an IT professional's client (either the customer or company that he or she works for) and that third party. This is the most very basic definition of conflict of interest. One cannot serve two masters. If you have been given something, and ESPECIALLY if it is something significant that can be taken away, then it presents a conflict of interest. This, from an ethical, perspective is wrong. This is the logic and the conclusion. It is as simple as that. It is not only what I believe but WHY I believe it. If someone can prove to me that this argument is illogical or flawed in some way, then I would believe something else. I am not close-minded or stubborn. Thus far, nobody has proven this argument to be flawed in any way. A lot of personal attacks, I have been called a wife beater, a liar and someone who starves children, but no one has refuted this most basic argument. I have never wavered from this argument, this has been the argument since the beginning that this all started. This is why companies tell their employees that they must send back gifts in excess of a certain dollar amount. This is BASIC ETHICS. Regardless of whether MCSE is unethical or whatever crazy argument you want to throw at it, this is basic ethics people. If you want to change my mind, then prove the above argument false. Simple as that. Now, I don't bring this stuff up. All it causes is this kind of craziness. Other people bring this stuff up. Exactly why is a mystery to me. Look at the subject of this message thread for Christ's sake. Are you kidding me? And it is not like I even threw in one of my whimsical Microsoft barbs. If someone is going to bring this stuff up, I am always, ALWAYS going to stick to this perspective and explain things the way I see them. Nobody has proven this logic wrong in 8 years. But, hey, I'm willing to think that someone might. There may be a flaw in there somewhere, that I do not see. And all this nonsense about "tone" and stating things as "my opinion" is all crap, a waste of bytes and besides the point. People read what they want to read in my posts, plain and simple. What is straight talk to one person is rude to another. What is polite to one is rambling, annoying and pointless to another. There are way too many people in this world to try to please so I speak in my own voice. It is a matter of fact voice that sticks to known facts and logic. If you are offended by my posts, well, there is not much I can do. I am not going to worry over every word and sentence for perfect structure and politeness. I simply do not have the time. > First of all, from a grammatical point-of-view, you only need to state > that it is your opinion at the beginning of a paragraph or passage > because it is fundamentally understood that follows the first phrase > or sentence further backs up your opinion. > > It is my opinion that you are more worried about reveling in your > moral and symantec righteousness than achieving the mental clarity to > realize that your 1200 word marathon responses make you look like a > total prat. But that is just my opinion. > > Disagreement is a necessary part of life and the human condition. If > we all got along, we'd all think the same way and life would get very > dull. You can disagree with someone (even with Ed) without saying > they are wrong. This is the difference between stating a fact vs. > opinion. By saying that someone is wrong, you are implying that you > are correct and your reasons are based upon fact or accepted truth. > > Allrightythen! I guess this means that we aren't due to bring this > topic up until June. Thanks for the comic relief, Greg! > > Eric Fretz > > L-3 Communications > ComCept Division > 2800 Discovery Blvd. > Rockwall, TX 75032 > tel: 972.772.7501 > fax: 972.772.7510 > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 12:50 PM > To: Exchange Discussions > Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 > > > In my opinion, there are those with the opinion that stating anything > as a fact and not an opinion is abrasive and rude. In my opinion, this > opinion is absurd because it is fundamentally understood that anything > that comes out of anyone's mouth is simply an opinion and not a fact. > In my opinion, there may be some people with the opinion that people > should not go around stating their opinions. But, in my opinion, > everyone has opinions and it gets rather monotonous and boring to keep > stating "in my opinion" all the time when, in my opinion, it should be > understood that everything is an opinion. > > In my opinion, people have opinions about lots of things that they > consider facts. In my opinion, there are many that hold the opinion > that the earth is round. But, in my opinion, this is simply an opinion > as, in my opinion, there are others that hold the opinion that the > earth is flat. In my opinion, this all depends on your opinion of the > words "earth", "round" and "flat". In my opinion, if, in your opinion, > the word "round" refers to a 2-dimensional circular object, then, in > my opinion, your opinion would be that the earth is not round since, > in my opinion, your opinion would be that the earth would be a sphere, > and not round. Of couse, in my opinion, if your opinion was that a > sphere is perfectly symmetrical such that all points on its surface > are equal distance from its center, then, in my opinion, your opinion > about the earth being a sphere might be wrong since, in my opinion, > there are those that hold the opinion that the earth is not a perfect > sphere but is actually a bit elliptical in shape. In addition, in my > opinion, there are elevation variations on the surface of the earth as > well which would mean that, in my opinion, the earth does not meet the > definition of a sphere if your opinion is that a sphere means that all > points on the surface of a 3-d object are equal distance from its > center. > > Now, of course, in my opinion, this is all just my opinion. But, in my > opinion, the bigger concern here is that, in your opinion, are you > happy now? > > > I was not arguing with you about the symantics between fact & > > opinion, just rather pointing out that you tend to assert your > > opinions as fact. That is a very abrasive personality trait and > > probably explains why the discussion list has reacted to you the way > > that they have. > > > > Eric Fretz > > > > L-3 Communications > > ComCept Division > > 2800 Discovery Blvd. > > Rockwall, TX 75032 > > tel: 972.772.7501 > > fax: 972.772.7510 > > _________________________________________________________________ > List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm > Web Interface: > http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode > =&lang > =english > To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&; lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
