I HAVE tried to let it rest. Ed brought up this whole topic from a message posted as "Migrating from GroupWise 6.5". Don't blame me for bringing the topic up because I DIDN'T BRING THE TOPIC UP.
And no, I never said that MVP's would cause the demise of the computer industry. What I said was, today we have a choice to either regulate ourselves or to wait for government to regulate us. That is what I said. I am more than happy to wait around for government to regulate us, that's why I don't bring up this whole "ethics" discussion. The computer industry is not going away, it will simply be more regulated. If we do it ourselves, we have a say in those regulations. If we do not, then government gets to have that say. > Then you live your ethics, and let the rest of us live ours. Then, when > the IT industry goes to hell in a handbasket, you can blame us all for > it's demise. We (speaking collectively here) don't believe that MVP's > are unethical for receiving a small stipend or gift (whatever it might > be). You do. That's fine, but stop trying to force it upon the rest of > us. Our views aren't going to change, and your views aren't going to > change, so let it rest.=20 > > > Ben Winzenz > Network Engineer > Gardner & White > (317) 581-1580 ext 418 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Posted At: Monday, December 22, 2003 12:24 PM > Posted To: Exchange (Swynk) > Conversation: Greg's Utterly Fascinating Views on Ethics > Subject: RE: Greg's Utterly Fascinating Views on Ethics > > > I got to the first paragraph in your post and pretty much quit reading.=20 > > I do not claim that all MVP's are Microsoft wh0res. I simply don't claim > that. In fact, I have posted things in direct opposition to that claim. > If you are going to make such blatant mis-characterizations, then I am > not going to respond to the rest of your post, which I can only assume > you will then take as "proof" that you are right or that I "cannot make > rational arguments" or whatever other non-sense you want to claim. > > "Ethical god"? Please. I have, nor ever will claim to be an "ethical > god". > I have my set of ethics that I follow, period. And I did not bring up > this whole point of ethics on this list. I posted an email about > "Migrating from GroupWise 6.5" that then degenerated into this mess. > Thank your buddy Ed for that. > > And about this claim that I am not following my own ethical guidelines. > Hey, there may be some truth to it. I haven't seen any proof from what > miserable evidence you have supplied, but I am more than willing to > admit that I may not live up to every single bit of the ethical code > that I have. Know what? It doesn't matter. An ethical code is the > ceiling, it is what everyone should aspire to, but it is not expected > that everyone will ALWAYS actually achieve every single little detail. > That's not what ethics is about. The laws are the floor, the ethical > code the ceiling, aspire to get as close to the ceiling as possible. All > I can say is that I try my absolute hardest, every day, to meet my own > ethical standards. Do I succeed every day? No, but I TRY. > > Finally, just because the officer that tickets you for speeding murdered > his wife last night doesn't mean that you DIDN'T break the law for > speeding. > > > > I have no credibility because I don't say BOO? Ok then...BOO > >=20 > > Do I get credibility now? > >=20 > > In all seriousness, I'm not the one who claims that all MVP's are=20 > > Microsoft Whores or that MVP's are doing anything wrong in their > world. > > Since, you are the one that brought up the point of ethics, I assumed=20 > > it was you that were claiming to be the "ethical god" here. Perhaps=20 > > your pointing out that you don't accept gifts because of your ethics=20 > > was where I went astray. > >=20 > > As for the litmus test you are under, I suggest you read your own=20 > > website. YOU are working for that company, and YOU are the one that=20 > > should be upholding ALL the virtues of that company, not me, not ED,=20 > > not TONY, heck, not even DON; only you! You don't like what your=20 > > company puts up as a litmus test, then I suggest you find a job > elsewhere. > >=20 > > One thing still stands, you still aren't drumming up business in this=20 > > list when you "explode" on potential customers. I hope you never=20 > > decide to come calling on my account, I'm sure your boss would like to > > > know the reason I refused you a meeting was because you don't know=20 > > when to shut up. > >=20 > > As for the name-calling that goes on this list, I suggest you shut up, > > > sit back, and learn. Sure, Ed, Tony, and Don (and a few more) can=20 > > certainly be grating on someone's nerves, but I will promise you, they > > > know more about Exchange Systems then you could wish to know in a=20 > > lifetime. While I don't choose to instruct in the same way these=20 > > people do, I certainly understand where they get to the point and call > > > someone an idiot for not looking up an issue like "How do I turn on my > computer" > > before posting it to the list. > >=20 > > Remember, the people on this list are under ZERO obligation to help=20 > > you, or anyone else. When they do choose to help, they can save your=20 > > butt more times then not. But they WILL NOT, nor should the be=20 > > expected to, put up with damn fools that ask a question that would be=20 > > answered faster if that person would have taken the time to research=20 > > the question themselves. > >=20 > > Sure, I don't like being called Lazy, but I promise, it took only once > > > from ED to make me understand that I better research the hell out of=20 > > something before I bring it here. Even then, I don't expect Ed, or=20 > > the rest, to be nice when it's a stupid ass mistake I made myself and=20 > > have no one to blame but myself. > >=20 > > You don't like the people in this list, change to a different list. =20 > > But don't complain about the free service you get here, just because=20 > > you don't like it when someone calls you a stupid fool for not doing=20 > > your homework before you got here. > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Bob Sadler > >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 10:51 AM > > To: Exchange Discussions > > Subject: RE: Greg's Utterly Fascinating Views on Ethics > >=20 > >=20 > > First, you have no credibility on the point. You find the phrase "I=20 > > finish them (fights)" offensive but not someone being called a "liar", > > > "stupid", "idiot", "wife beater". You simply have zaro credibility. > >=20 > > Second, as for your other two points, our customers and potential=20 > > customers are made well aware of any and all potential conflicts of=20 > > interest. We practice full disclosure. In addition, meeting with a=20 > > vendor to talk about their new products is in no way even CLOSE to=20 > > accepting a title or gift from said vendor. But, there is no point to=20 > > even debating this with you because you are never going to see it=20 > > because you are going to deny the obvious. Yes, I have to deal with=20 > > vendors just like everyone else in this industry. It is a fact of > life. > > But, I don't have to like it and no, generally, I almost NEVER meet=20 > > with vendors and when I do, it is for specific purposes, I get in, get > > > the information and get out. > >=20 > > Finally, you have obviously shown your bias by claiming that I claim=20 > > to be the "all ethical" sort. And to my knowledge, I have no "ethics > test" > > that I have created. This is a blatant mis-characterization and=20 > > exposes your bias. I am not, nor ever will be "all ethical" and=20 > > "holier than thou". I have *different* ethics apparently than many on=20 > > this board, but I have never claimed to be perfect or that my ethics=20 > > are the end all, be all. Yes, I have paid to attend conventions, I=20 > > have paid to be a Microsoft "partner". In some strict ethical vaccuum=20 > > those may be considered unethical, but this is the real world. And=20 > > besides that, there is a clear, bright line between paying a vendor to > > > attend a convention and accepting a pure gift from a vendor. That=20 > > bright line is what I have been talking about, but you are never going > > > to see it because you will never admit to the obvious and just want to > > > pick a fight. > >=20 > > And yes, for all of you out there, I am nearly certain that, in my=20 > > youth, I accepted direct gifts from vendors. I cannot recall any=20 > > particular occassion, but I'm willing to bet that it probably > occurred. > > And guess what? I stopped that long, long, long ago because IT IS > WRONG. > >=20 > > So, to sum it up, you have no credibility that you have been > "offended" > > in any way because there have been lots more offensive stuff said that > > > you have not said boo about. And, you are in self-denial about the=20 > > DISTINCT difference between accepting a pure gift from a vendor and=20 > > PAYING that vendor to attend a convention, etc. Here's a hint. One=20 > > costs you money, the other doesn't. > >=20 > > > I am not "quibbling" with what you said, I'm instead taking offense=20 > > > at > >=20 > > > what you said. You see, you can't claim to be the "all ethical"=20 > > >sort=3D20 you want, if you can't even pass the ethics test of your = > own > > > >making. =3D20 I didn't post any of those points on your website,=20 > > >someone from YOUR=3D20 company did, and you are the one claiming to > hold them near and dear. > > >=3D20 > > > How interesting that you choose to respond ONLY to one point, and=20 > > >then > >=20 > > > make irrelevant statements about people calling you names. > > >=3D20 > > > Since I didn't call you names sir, perhaps you should go back = > and=3D20 > > > >re-read the whole message. It's not that I consider you a liar,=20 > > >or=3D20 that you are stupid. I now consider you incapable of having = > > > >any type=3D20 of intelligent discussion based on the fact that you=20 > > >choose to ignore=3D20 2/3rds of what was posted, or should I just=20 > > >assume that you chose not=3D20 to discuss those points because you=20 > > >couldn't keep your "I have my=3D20 Ethics" argument and all this = > would > be moot? > > >=3D20 > > > Speaking of MOOT, can anyone tell me what top 10 classic rock=20 > > >single=3D20 contains the word "MOOT"? > > >=3D20 > > >=3D20 > > >=3D20 > > > Bob Sadler > > >=3D20 > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 9:50 AM > > > To: Exchange Discussions > > > Subject: RE: Greg's Utterly Fascinating Views on Ethics =3D20 =3D20 = > So=20 > > >you are going to quibble with things that "I" said? You people = > are=3D20 > > > >so whacked out that it is utterly incomprehensible. So where were=20 > > >you=3D20 when I was called a "liar" or a "wife beater" or "stupid" = > or=20 > > >"idiot"=3D20 or that I "starve children". All of that is OK in your=20 > > >whacky bizarro=3D20 world, but explaining to someone that if you = > start > > > >a fight (in email=3D20 for Christ's > > > sake) that I will finish that fight. Oh that is TERRIBLE! How could > > you > > > SAY such a thing. Never mind the "liar", "stupid", "idiot" stuff, > > THAT, > > > sir, is uncalled for. > > >=3D20 > > > Bob, you amaze me. > > >=3D20 > > > > You know, I'm just as happy to NOT read this dribble, but = > when=3D20=20 > > > > someone > > >=3D20 > > > > points out so wonderfully how ethical they are, and we can all=20 > > > > go=3D20 to=3D3D20 www.infonition.com/ethics.shtml to prove it, = > then=20 > > > > someone =3D > > like > >=20 > > > > me just > > >=3D20 > > > > might go there and read, and low and behold what is it we find? = > =3D > > =3D3D20 > > > > Well, this character Greg, wants us all to believe his "ethics" > > are=3D3D20 > > > > without question. So, let's take a look at his ethics page and > > see=3D3D20 > > > > what he's supposed to be doing. > > > >=3D3D20 > > > > First, Greg's point of vendor conflict is answered here: > > > >=3D3D20 > > > > To never accept compensation from vendors for recommending =3D3D > > > products=3D3D3D20 > > > >=3D3D20 > > > > One must ask then Greg, have you ever been to a seminar,=3D20=20 > > > >conference,=3D3D20 or LUNCH where the vendor presenting paid for=20 > > > >the=3D20 meal, the snacks,=3D3D20 the coffee? =3D3D20 Second, = > Greg's=20 > > > >list of ethics claim: > > > >=3D3D20 > > > > To disclose any and all influences that may affect our=3D3D20 =20 > > > >recommendations=3D3D3D20 =3D3D20 Greg, does this mean that if I = > were=20 > > > >to speak to you over the > > phone,=3D3D20 > > > > you would tell me just how many times your Cisco, Microsoft, =3D > > Bay=3D3D20 > > > > Networks, etc., Rep. has called? Or are you saying that you > > never=3D3D20 > > > > meet with the vendors to discuss how their products can benefit > > your=3D3D20 > > > > customers? Do you ever read trade magazines that discuss the use > > of=3D3D20 > > > > one vendors products over another? Will you then tell me all =3D > > the=3D3D20 > > > > magazines you read, what date, publication, page number, etc? > > > >=3D3D20 > > > > Third, Greg's list goes on to say: > > > >=3D3D20 > > > > To be fair and accurate when resolving disputes, problems or > > issues=3D3D20 > > > > [and] To conduct ourselves in a professional manner at all > > times=3D3D3D20 > > > >=3D3D20 > > > > One must ask then Greg, exactly how does your statement of: > > "Wrong.=3D3D20 > > > > You brought it up by throwing stones my way. I don't pick fights, > > I=3D3D20 > > > > finish them." work into these statements? > > > >=3D3D20 > > > > This is just what I don't need in a vendor. Someone who believes > > he's > > >=3D20 > > > > always right, and if he is going to have a fight with his=3D20=20 > > > >customers,=3D3D20 HE'S going to finish it. I can see now why=20 > > > >people=3D20 flock to your=3D3D20 organization Greg. =3D3D20 The = > point=20 > > > >is, don't say something matters a great deal to you, > > and=3D3D20 > > > > then give this list plenty of examples showing that apparently =3D > > it=3D3D20 > > > > doesn't. You want to wave a flag around and say "I have ethics" > > and=3D3D20 > > > > yet not live by those same ethics, then be prepared to be > > inundated=3D3D20 > > > > with the onslaught. > > > >=3D3D20 > > > > I would trust Ed, Tom, Tony, and even Don, further then I would > > trust=3D3D20 > > > > someone yelling about how ethical they are and at the same time > > say=3D3D20 > > > > they'll finish any fight. > > > >=3D3D20 > > > > It's time to throttle back now greg, and realize this. You are = > =3D > > a=3D3D20 > > > > Sales Manager for a company that apparently you are supposed to > > be=3D3D20 > > > > drumming up business for. Just how much business do you think > > you=3D3D20 > > > > have generated on this list after acting in the manner you did? > > > >=3D3D20 > > > > Bob Sadler > > > >=3D3D20 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > >=3D20 > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm > > > Web Interface:=3D20 > > > =3D > > = > http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=3D3D3Dexchange&text_ > > mo > > > de=3D3D3D=3D3D > > > & > > > lang=3D3D3Denglish > > > To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >=20 > > _________________________________________________________________ > > List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm > > Web Interface: > > = > http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=3D3Dexchange&text_mo > > de=3D3D=3D > > & > > lang=3D3Denglish > > To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > _________________________________________________________________ > List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm > Web Interface: > http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=3Dexchange&text_mode=3D= > & > lang=3Denglish > To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
