What started this whole mess is your unique (that wasn't my first choice of adjectives) point of view on ethics and your insistence that it is the correct and only viewpoint.
Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 9:39 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Greg's Utterly Fascinating Views on Ethics Again, your ignorance of the facts makes you look foolish. I was asked to be an MVP and turned it down. That's what started this whole mess 8 years ago. > I get this strange idea that someone wasn't chosen to be an MVP and is > very very angry about it :) > > > > Bob Sadler > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ed Crowley [MVP] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 11:30 AM > To: Exchange Discussions > Subject: RE: Greg's Utterly Fascinating Views on Ethics > > > So how fundamentally different is paying Microsoft to be a Partner > than being an MVP? It's true that I don't pay actual money to be an > MVP, but I do work for it. Don't you have to sign lots of agreement > papers to be a Partner? Do you give all your customers copies of > those papers so they can assess the level of conflict of interest? So > if I send Microsoft a dollar for my MVP status, the conflict of interest ends? > > You still haven't proven your assertion that my accepting the small > gratuity and title associated with MVP constitutes a conflict of > interest. Your only proof so far is along the lines of, "It's obvious," > or "It is because I say it is." Perhaps it's because you can't prove it? > > Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP > Freelance E-Mail Philosopher > Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler > Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 8:51 AM > To: Exchange Discussions > Subject: RE: Greg's Utterly Fascinating Views on Ethics > > First, you have no credibility on the point. You find the phrase "I > finish them (fights)" offensive but not someone being called a "liar", > "stupid", "idiot", "wife beater". You simply have zaro credibility. > > Second, as for your other two points, our customers and potential > customers are made well aware of any and all potential conflicts of > interest. We practice full disclosure. In addition, meeting with a > vendor to talk about their new products is in no way even CLOSE to > accepting a title or gift from said vendor. But, there is no point to > even debating this with you because you are never going to see it > because you are going to deny the obvious. Yes, I have to deal with > vendors just like everyone else in this industry. It is a fact of life. > But, I don't have to like it and no, generally, I almost NEVER meet > with vendors and when I do, it is for specific purposes, I get in, get > the information and get out. > > Finally, you have obviously shown your bias by claiming that I claim > to be the "all ethical" sort. And to my knowledge, I have no "ethics test" > that I have created. This is a blatant mis-characterization and > exposes your bias. I am not, nor ever will be "all ethical" and > "holier than thou". I have > *different* ethics apparently than many on this board, but I have > never claimed to be perfect or that my ethics are the end all, be all. > Yes, I have paid to attend conventions, I have paid to be a Microsoft > "partner". In some strict ethical vaccuum those may be considered > unethical, but this is the real world. And besides that, there is a > clear, bright line between paying a vendor to attend a convention and > accepting a pure gift from a vendor. That bright line is what I have > been talking about, but you are never going to see it because you will > never admit to the obvious and just want to pick a fight. > > And yes, for all of you out there, I am nearly certain that, in my > youth, I accepted direct gifts from vendors. I cannot recall any > particular occassion, but I'm willing to bet that it probably occurred. > And guess what? I stopped that long, long, long ago because IT IS WRONG. > > So, to sum it up, you have no credibility that you have been "offended" > in any way because there have been lots more offensive stuff said that > you have not said boo about. And, you are in self-denial about the > DISTINCT difference between accepting a pure gift from a vendor and > PAYING that vendor to attend a convention, etc. Here's a hint. One > costs you money, the other doesn't. > > > I am not "quibbling" with what you said, I'm instead taking offense > >at what you said. You see, you can't claim to be the "all ethical" > >sort=20 you want, if you can't even pass the ethics test of your own > >making. =20 I didn't post any of those points on your website, > >someone from YOUR=20 company did, and you are the one claiming to hold them near and dear. > >=20 > > How interesting that you choose to respond ONLY to one point, and > >then make irrelevant statements about people calling you names. > >=20 > > Since I didn't call you names sir, perhaps you should go back and > >re-read the whole message. It's not that I consider you a liar, > >or=20 that you are stupid. I now consider you incapable of having > >any type=20 of intelligent discussion based on the fact that you > >choose to ignore=20 2/3rds of what was posted, or should I just > >assume that you chose not=20 to discuss those points because you > >couldn't keep your "I have my > Ethics" > > argument and all this would be moot? > >=20 > > Speaking of MOOT, can anyone tell me what top 10 classic rock single > >contains the word "MOOT"? > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Bob Sadler > >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 9:50 AM > > To: Exchange Discussions > > Subject: RE: Greg's Utterly Fascinating Views on Ethics =20 =20 So > >you are going to quibble with things that "I" said? You people are > >so whacked out that it is utterly incomprehensible. So where were > >you=20 when I was called a "liar" or a "wife beater" or "stupid" or > >"idiot"=20 or that I "starve children". All of that is OK in your > >whacky bizarro=20 world, but explaining to someone that if you start > >a fight (in email=20 for Christ's > > sake) that I will finish that fight. Oh that is TERRIBLE! How > >could=20 you SAY such a thing. Never mind the "liar", "stupid", > >"idiot" stuff,=20 THAT, sir, is uncalled for. > >=20 > > Bob, you amaze me. > >=20 > > > You know, I'm just as happy to NOT read this dribble, but when > > > someone > >=20 > > > points out so wonderfully how ethical they are, and we can all go > > > to=3D20 www.infonition.com/ethics.shtml to prove it, then someone > > > = > like > > > > me just > >=20 > > > might go there and read, and low and behold what is it we find? = > =3D20 > > > Well, this character Greg, wants us all to believe his "ethics"=20 > > >are=3D20 without question. So, let's take a look at his ethics > > >page = > > > >and see=3D20 what he's supposed to be doing. > > >=3D20 > > > First, Greg's point of vendor conflict is answered here: > > >=3D20 > > > To never accept compensation from vendors for recommending =3D > > products=3D3D20 > > >=3D20 > > > One must ask then Greg, have you ever been to a seminar, > > >conference,=3D20 or LUNCH where the vendor presenting paid for > > >the=20 meal, the snacks,=3D20 the coffee? > > >=3D20 > > > Second, Greg's list of ethics claim: > > >=3D20 > > > To disclose any and all influences that may affect our=3D20 =20 > > >recommendations=3D3D20 =3D20 Greg, does this mean that if I were > > >to=20 speak to you over the phone,=3D20 you would tell me just how > > >many=20 times your Cisco, Microsoft, Bay=3D20 Networks, etc., Rep. > > >has = > called? > > > >Or are you saying that you never=3D20 meet with the vendors to = > discuss > > > >how their products can benefit your=3D20 customers? Do you ever = > read=20 > > >trade magazines that discuss the use of=3D20 one vendors products > > >= > over > > > >another? Will you then tell me all the=3D20 magazines you read, = > what=20 > > >date, publication, page number, etc? > > >=3D20 > > > Third, Greg's list goes on to say: > > >=3D20 > > > To be fair and accurate when resolving disputes, problems or=20 > > >issues=3D20 [and] To conduct ourselves in a professional manner at > > >= > all > > > >times=3D3D20 =3D20 One must ask then Greg, exactly how does > > >your=20 statement of: "Wrong.=3D20 You brought it up by throwing > > >stones my=20 way. I don't pick fights, I=3D20 finish them." work > > >into these=20 statements? > > >=3D20 > > > This is just what I don't need in a vendor. Someone who > > >believes=20 he's > >=20 > > > always right, and if he is going to have a fight with his > > >customers,=3D20 HE'S going to finish it. I can see now why > > >people=20 flock to your=3D20 organization Greg. > > >=3D20 > > > The point is, don't say something matters a great deal to you,=20 > > >and=3D20 then give this list plenty of examples showing that=20 > > >apparently it=3D20 doesn't. You want to wave a flag around and say > > >= > "I=20 > > >have ethics" and=3D20 yet not live by those same ethics, then > > >be=20 prepared to be inundated=3D20 with the onslaught. > > >=3D20 > > > I would trust Ed, Tom, Tony, and even Don, further then I would=20 > > >trust=3D20 someone yelling about how ethical they are and at the = > same=20 > > >time say=3D20 they'll finish any fight. > > >=3D20 > > > It's time to throttle back now greg, and realize this. You are = > a=3D20 > > > >Sales Manager for a company that apparently you are supposed to = > be=3D20 > > > >drumming up business for. Just how much business do you think = > you=3D20 > > > >have generated on this list after acting in the manner you did? > > >=3D20 > > > Bob Sadler > > >=3D20 > > > -----Original Message----- > >=20 > > _________________________________________________________________ > > List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm > > Web Interface:=20 > > = > http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=3D3Dexchange&text_ > mo > > de=3D3D=3D > > & > > lang=3D3Denglish > > To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > _________________________________________________________________ > List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm > Web Interface: > http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=3Dexchange&text_mo > de=3D= > & > lang > =3Denglish > To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > _________________________________________________________________ > List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm > Web Interface: > http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=3Dexchange&text_mo > de=3D= > & > lang=3Denglish > To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
