TurquoiseB wrote: > Last night I rapped for a little while about outlaws > and why I like them, and the flack they sometimes get > from others for living by no rules but their own. But > there is another reason why I love outlaws. For me > they are the perfect metaphor for the pathway to > enlightenment. > Who are you running from? > In my considered opinion, *most* of the men and women > in human history who have realized their enlightenment > have done so by being outlaws. At some point in their > lives they decided to stop following the advice or the > "laws" of others, and follow only their own. > How would you be knowing about most of the men and women in human history when you've only lived Spain for two months? Sure, Socrates maybe broke the law by siding with the oligarchs, but was he enlightened when he composed the Republic? I think not. And he drank the hemlock - a stupid thing to do if you're enlightened. > You need look no further than the Buddha for an example. > Yeah, he studied with a few teachers during his early > days. But he rejected them all, and in the end wound > up "studying" only with the Self. > Did the historical Buddha believe in a "Self"?
> And that was all that was needed to realize the Self. > That is essentially his message, and in my opinion it > is still true, all these centuries later. > Can you cite any evidence that the historical Buddha believed in and taught the existence of a "Self"? Surely you have read all the Buddha's recorded sermons. Otherwise why would you make such a claim? > Many in the spiritual community are *offended* by the > idea of DIY (Do It Yourself). > Guffaww!!! Yoga is the original DIY! > They come up with all sorts of intellectual arguments > for how it isn't possible for a self to realize Self > all by itself. They repeat the stuff they've been told > (and, more often than not, *sold*) by teachers who told > them that they *needed* a teacher to realize who they > are. They go on and on like Ron does about how a guru > is essential, and how doing exactly what he or she says > is essential to become enlightened. > Barry, you need to stop the BS. You've spent almost your entire adult life in and out of cults studying with one teacher after another. First it was Lobsang Rampa, then the Marshy, then the Zen Master Rama - who knows what cult you belong to today. > Well, to echo Cuba Gooding, Jr. in Jerry Maguire, "Show > me the enlightenment!" > > We were all told for years or decades within the TM move- > to Just Follow Instructions. "Do what we tell you to do > and you'll become enlightened." Yeah, right. We all know > how many people in the TM movement *that* worked for. > Weren't you the guy who handed out all the flyers promising enlightenment in 5-7 years? What's up with that? > And then I look at other spiritual traditions and what I > see is that the guys and gals who get written about *as* > enlightened beings are the ones who *didn't* follow > instructions, who *didn't* do exactly what they were > told to do. For the most part, the people whom history > records as the enlightened were outlaws. For a while > they tried doing things Somebody Else's Way, but in the > end the thing that enabled them to realize their enlight- > enment was finding Their Own Way. > Like who? Most of the Buddhist teachers I've known or read about all followed the teachings of the Buddha. I guess you could call Chogyam Trungpa an outlaw, but he died at a premature age from riotous living - hardly a role model. But it's not against the law to drink a quart of whiskey and smoke two packs of Marlboro every day. > I could go on and on and on, listing the enlightened of > the past whose life stories suggest that they were outlaws. > It's pretty easy to do; there are far more of them than > there are stories about people who realized enlightenment > by doing what they were told. > 'The Collected Works of Chögyam Trungpa' Volume 5: Crazy Wisdom-Illusion's Game-The Life of Marpa the Translator (excerpts)- The Rain of Wisdom (excerpts)-Mahamudra (excerpts)-Selected Writings by Chogyam Trungpa Shambhala, 2004 > But instead, since I know that this is going to push > some buttons, I'll ask those who still believe that one > *can* become realized by doing what you're told to do > (or that that's the *only* way you can realize enlight- > enment) to provide some examples of this. Show me the > enlightenment! Trot out some examples of someone follow- > ing Someone Else's Path and getting enlightened by > doing what he or she was told to do. > The historical Buddha? > We've certainly seen Ron trying to do this here, and I > think we've all seen how believable his claims that all > these people are poppin' into enlightenment are. I would > suspect that there is not one person here who believes it. > But *Ron* believes it, and obviously believes firmly > that if he does everything he is told to do, for long > enough, that enlightenment will be the result. > > Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I'm not > convinced. I think there is great value in the moment > in which one *rejects* doing what one has been told, > and does Something Else instead. > > That moment often is referred to by the enlightened as > the pivotal moment in their lives in which the seed of > realization was planted. It may not have actually been > *doing* the Something Else that "caused" realization, > but just making that decision to no longer be reliant > on Someone Else's Path in almost every case revealed > their *own* path to them. And that path led them home. >
