--- In [email protected], "Irmeli Mattsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > When young in school I was quite critical of the religion teaching. > In the bible I saw some deep wisdom, a lot of fairy tales and > manipulation to make people obey the religious authorities in power. > I never could take the bible as the word of God, and later no other > so called holy scripture either. > > As a young adolescent I came to the following conclusion: If there is > God and he is the embodiment of truth, he cannot expect from me > anything else expect I follow what I find to be true deep inside my > heart, even if it meant the denial of the existence of God. I did not > deny his existence, but came to the conclusion that I cannot ever > have a correct picture or idea of him, he transcends my conceptual > understanding and everybody else's also. If you criticise holy men or > holy scriptures you are NOT criticising God. But if you are not > listening to the silent whispers of truth deep inside, you are > harming yourself and others. > > Throughout the history of humanity religion and holy men have a long > and impressive track record of atrocities and misuse of power. Phew, you put it all in one basket don't you? 'Religion and holy man have a long and impressive track record of atrocities.' You are seriously mixing up political power with spirituality. No doubt, religion was often misused, but the way you deal with it you throw out the baby with the bathwater. What about saints? Do they also have a long history of atrocities? > Therefore it would shopw poor judgement not to have these entities > under strict scrutiny. And it would be wise also not to give too much > power to them at all. But who is going to exercise control over them and from which level of truth are you going to do it? In India *before* you choose a Guru, not after, you are supposed to do this scrutinizing. Once you have convinced yourself that a Guru is real, you should surrender. It's not that judgment isn't there. And of course you can still leave a Guru, out of several reasons. But it's another thing to put dirt on him or insult him after you left. For eaxmple, there was a long discussion here about MMY's alledged sexlife. I cannot judge if what was said is true or not, but it is also clear, that it doesn't touch the lives of any here present. It fulfills some curiousity thats all, and most people don't care about it. Now what aut these artocities, does it have anything to do with it? No. > Holy men can teach us important skills or deeper understanding of the > subjective subtle reality. But if they crave for power, it should not > be given to them. I think this is somewhat unrealistic. Of what kind of setting do you speak? If somebody has a personal Guru, the this Guru can only effect his ego, if he is given some power over it. Of course you can also learn something from him without that, like a technique of meditation. In the end you have to decide what you go for: Are you in a Guru /desciple relationship, or not, its your decision. But if you are, you have to give some power away from your ego. I am simply acknowledging that this path exists, and acknowledge the mechanics connected with it. I guess most people here are not in such a relationship anyway, so how can they judge? > Threatening by the consequences of criticising of > them is a powerful method of manipulation which takes advantage of > people's fears. Sure, but this is written in the scripture. Your approach here is like Uncs a typically western approach, looking at it from a sort of sociological perspective, but ignoring the mystic component of such a relationship. > If the holy men manage to get inside an organization absolute power, > that very position will also cause their degradation. Power corrupts > easily, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Actually I wasn't talking about big organizations. the relationships I am talking about are one to one relationships. I realize that this is different with the TMO. The question though is always *how* you critize. Some people simply do it for putting down the whole thing or marginalize Bhakti as such. > But then again I also respect the choice of those people, who go > along the path of unconditional devotion to their guru. Some people > seem to need that kind of path to be able to reach to deeper levels > in spirituality. Yet in any of the Guru related systems this is regarded as essential. Its not that 'some people need it'. Even Ramana says that bhakti will grow when Jnana grows. > What bothers me is ,when people on this kind of path > resort to lies and other unscrupulous methods to convince others of > their path being superior or even to force others to follow that > path. I don't agree when TMers say their path is the best. Nobody can know if there is nothing better, and it's not true. But it will help the people involved, and I'd rather strenghthen the faith of the people in what they are doing, the discourage them. But through these newsgroups a lot of discouraging happens. Some people do it consciously, which I dislike, others simply share their own uncertainty or dissatifaction, which is somewhat understandable. > I know many people, who are very much afraid of spiritual > organizations and techniques, because they apparently have deep fears > of getting drawn into a cult. But that way they also often seem to > put their spiritual development on a halt. Exactly. And the reason for this is the strong anti-guru propaganda in the public. It's not just TM. Scandals are being blown up in the public, and the path as such is being discriminated in the public. > But I respect that choice > also. It may be that it is important for them in this lifetime to > concentrate on learning in other aspects of life. > > Generally I'm willing to support people in their progress on their > chosen path, the only prerequisite being this path respects the > rights of others. I have no need to convert anyone to some special > belief system. Right. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
