t3rinity: > Phew, you put it all in one basket don't you? 'Religion and holy man > have a long and impressive track record of atrocities.' You are > seriously mixing up political power with spirituality. No doubt, > religion was often misused, but the way you deal with it you throw out > the baby with the bathwater. What about saints? Do they also have a > long history of atrocities?
Irmeli: Not the real saints. Rather beings who have claimed to be saints or holy men and have had cravings for power. People should be very cautious with people, who claim themselves to be saints and they have needs to position of power inside an organization. My intention was not to mix spirituality with religion and power. Power in any organization is in no way different in quality from political power. t3rinity: But who is going to exercise control over them and from which level of > truth are you going to do it? In India *before* you choose a Guru, not > after, you are supposed to do this scrutinizing. Once you have > convinced yourself that a Guru is real, you should surrender. It's not > that judgment isn't there. And of course you can still leave a Guru, > out of several reasons. But it's another thing to put dirt on him or > insult him after you left. For eaxmple, there was a long discussion > here about MMY's alledged sexlife. I cannot judge if what was said is > true or not, but it is also clear, that it doesn't touch the lives of > any here present. It fulfills some curiousity thats all, and most > people don't care about it. Now what aut these artocities, does it > have anything to do with it? No. > Irmeli:Yes the scrutinizing should be done mainly before you choose a guru. But also after you have surrendered to the guru, although it may not be easily done then. MMY I cannot consider to be a real guru expect for those who can live in a close personal contact with him. And I see it important to discuss the possible abuse of power of ANY person. It can be prevented only that way. Exposing it everywhere, where it might be hiding. That way people learn to discriminate those things and are not so easily abused. t3rinity: I think this is somewhat unrealistic. Of what kind of setting do you > speak? If somebody has a personal Guru, the this Guru can only effect > his ego, if he is given some power over it. Of course you can also > learn something from him without that, like a technique of meditation. > In the end you have to decide what you go for: Are you in a Guru > /desciple relationship, or not, its your decision. But if you are, you > have to give some power away from your ego. I am simply acknowledging > that this path exists, and acknowledge the mechanics connected with > it. I guess most people here are not in such a relationship anyway, > so how can they judge? Irmeli:I have some difficulties to discuss this topic at all, because in this lifetime I have not felt need for a guru and still been capable of evolving spiritually. But I would think it to be possible to surrender your ego to a guru, without losing your capacity to good judgement and discrimination and rational, truthful clear thinking. And what you find to be true deep inside your heart you should have your first priority to follow, even if you have surrendered yourself to a guru. If your following a guru is based on fear of consequences of not following, what kind of relationship is that? Irmeli: Threatening by the consequences of criticising of them is a powerful method of manipulation which takes advantage of people's fears. t3rinity: Sure, but this is written in the scripture. Your approach here is like > Uncs a typically western approach, looking at it from a sort of > sociological perspective, but ignoring the mystic component of such a > relationship. > Irmeli:Yes I'm a westerner, and I have very difficult to relate to the mystical component of a fear based relationship. My conceptual framework is actually modern psychology. I have studied very little of the eastern traditions. In the guru relationship I actually see the child/parent relationship put on stage, to be able to as an adult to go through the incomplete and stagnated individualization process of a child. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
