Ii realize that we are both processing stuff, and I hope we both find a resolution in that processing without beating the shit out of each other.
I am expressing my opinions and views -- works in progress. My contention that the women were not 100 % victims is having known two of the women at the time (but without knowledge of the affairs at that time) and it would be an insult to them to call them 100% victims. I knew some other women who were in position (proximity and charms) to have been propositioned -- and possibly with acceptance. They were strong, educated, smart women. Not easily manipulated or prone to endure bullshit. Maybe I am wrong, maybe their inner traits and personality totally disintegrated under the duress and power of the affair and the abuser. Was that your direct perception of these women at the time -- that they morphed from strong independent, thinking women to wimpless waifs? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <geezerfr...@...> wrote: > > Sorry but all your back peddling now doesn't make it so. > > And who are you to proclaim that any of these women are not 100% victims. You > don't know enough about any of the situations here to make statements like > that. > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <geezerfreak@> wrote: > > > > > > Lord what a pile of rationalization shit that post was Tart! Where do you > > > see me saying anything about "not getting " anything from the TMO > > > experience? Find it for me Tart. > > > > > > I am sorry. The post had nothing to do with you. But its funny you > > apparently read yourself as being the center of it all. > > > > My point was the women are not 100% victims -- even if MMY is 100% a > > victimizer. Though I may give MMY a 0% pass -- I don't think all of the > > women get a 100% pass. The women expected to get something out of the > > relationship. And they were aware of consequences of getting involved. > > They have my sympathy, my empathy. As do others who were also hurt in the > > TMO. I hope for their complete healing. And I think there are lessons > > learned. > > > > > > > > > > You can't. > > > > > > No, instead I said (without digging my own post up) that "no one is > > > saying that MMY didn't bring a wonderful meditation technique to the > > > world." > > > > > > That isn't the point of this discussion. All we need to do to find the > > > happy, happy, joy, joy world of official TM is go the the official TM > > > site. > > > > > > We're discussing what the spiritual teacher we all followed for various > > > times in our life conducted his private life. We're discussing whether he > > > walked the walk that he talked. We're discussing whether he abused his > > > position of power to take advantage of these people. > > > > > > Saying "oh well, it doesn't always go the way we want it to in live, now > > > does it" is one hell of a cheap cop out. You might want to start over > > > tart, and consider this again. > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I am sorry if and when anyone is hurt. I wish it were not so. But in > > > > most things in life there is give and take. Following your words to > > > > their implications, one might think JJ gave all, obtained nothing, and > > > > was severely taken advantage of and cheated. Not sure, but J always > > > > seemed to have gained a lot when I saw him. I am not sure he would > > > > grieve and moan that he walked away empty handed (and actually -- > > > > emptiness is a great thing). > > > > > > > > Not all our dreams come true. Not all our fantasies materialize. But no > > > > one got any benefit? They walked away totally empty from the deal? > > > > > > > > By my own choice, I worked in the TMO, became a teacher, taught, did > > > > courses and generally had good things happening, growth happened in > > > > many areas of my life. Some great adventures. Gained a lot. Was I > > > > disappointed all my dreams did not come true? Was I disillusioned over > > > > time? Sure. Was I disappointed M didn't give me all the face time I > > > > wanted? Sure. But irrespective of that, after some time of seeing a > > > > pattern of disconnects, I said adieu. As did most people. Did I leave > > > > with nothing? With less than I came with? Hardly. I walked in expecting > > > > to gain the universe an all knowledge. I walked away with less -- but > > > > still a smile on my face. > > > > > > > > The ladies, I hurt for them. I am sorry some were hurt. Were they > > > > participants? Or did they walk away? I know girls that had affairs with > > > > professors in college (not MIU -- though that happened too). They knew > > > > it was a dicey thing. But were willing to take the risk. They knew it > > > > was not a long term thing. Were the ladies (such a TMO word), were > > > > these woman totally oblivious to any downside? Was it all just upside? > > > > Become the princess of the TMO? Forever? No risk? No downside? > > > > > > > > People make choices. And they are aware of the consequences of the > > > > choices. People enter relations -- far more normal than these womem -- > > > > and are later hurt, rejected. Life sometimes sucks. And sometimes we > > > > learn and grow from that suckiness. People learn. People move on. > > > > > > > > I just can't buy 100% into this victimhood stigma you wrap these women > > > > in. They made choices -- probably naive ones, but they were aware of an > > > > upside. They were aware of a downside. Their dreams were not fulfilled. > > > > I am sorry. I wish all dreams were fulfilled. But life moves on. It > > > > sounds like most or all of the women have fruitful lives. > > > > > > > > As far as discarding women -- did you ever see that among teachers? It > > > > happened and happens. I am sad it does. But are you also rallying > > > > against all of the teachers who had relations and moved on -- (to the > > > > next town, next course...) without a totally sweet ending? I wish all > > > > relations had happy endings. Sadly not all do. Sadly some men are > > > > heals. (Some women are too.) But are all women totally oblivious to > > > > this? They have over the ages no clue it would not always end like a > > > > fairy tale? And by the way -- any guys ever get dumped in unceremoneous > > > > and undeserved ways. Yes, they have. > > > > > > > > And from what I saw and have pieced together, the women were sometimes, > > > > perhaps often, aware of previous women. Clearly things did not work > > > > out for those preceding them. Yet they chose to go ahead with it. And > > > > things did not worked out as planned or hoped. I am sorry it was not > > > > all golden. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <geezerfreak@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > It's nice that it doesn't bother you Doc. But, how about the ladies > > > > > involved? Does the damage done (and it very clearly WAS done) to the > > > > > ladies bother you? That MMY could so callously use his power and > > > > > influence over these women to bed them, then discard them in a > > > > > variety of ways when a new box of chocolates opens to him, makes me > > > > > question plenty about this guy. The same thing happened repeatedly to > > > > > those whose money he was after. He used you up and discarded you when > > > > > you were know longer of any use to him....happened for years. Didn't > > > > > matter who you were. Ask Jerry Jarvis. > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "drpetersutphen" > > > > > <drpetersutphen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone...Some masochistic impulse made me join FFL again..go > > > > > > figure...I must have had something transit rahu, whatever. > > > > > > > > > > > > What I find amazing about MMY and all the ladies is that I believe > > > > > > that it is all true and it doesn't bother me the way it might in > > > > > > the distant past. I can't conceptually resolve it by dismissing MMY > > > > > > because of the amazing transformations his body of techniques and > > > > > > his darshan itself have had on me. I can't figure out why he'd be > > > > > > interested in sex, especially the kind of "bust-a-nut" sex these > > > > > > ladies seem to be describing. It's a mystery. I wish one of these > > > > > > women had asked MMY, what's up with all this sex, Maharishi? I > > > > > > don't get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer" <rick@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anonymously: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course please keep my name and position private. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been reading, almost obsessively-compulsively, the > > > > > > > sequential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > discussions re: Judith's book on FFL. At first it was with a > > > > > > > sigh of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > relief, that one lady had opened up, and was so well received. > > > > > > > Now the dirt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is rolling in--people doing their best to cast doubt on her > > > > > > > experiences, to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > besmirch her integrity, to ridicule what she has to say just so > > > > > > > they will > > > > > > > > > > > > > > feel better. And people wonder why the other ladies don't come > > > > > > > forward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I remember Judith from Squaw Valley days. She had been put in > > > > > > > charge of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cleaning M's rooms and silks. She had the most beautiful saris. > > > > > > > I asked > > > > > > > > > > > > > > her where she bought them and she explained that M had given them > > > > > > > to her. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Immediately my radar went up; she had done something personal > > > > > > > with him that > > > > > > > pleased him, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I surmised, and he gave her something beautiful in exchange. > > > > > > > Having been > > > > > > > propositioned by M > > > > > > > > > > > > > > myself but turning him down, I had not received anything for that > > > > > > > one night. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even way back then with Judith, I thought, maybe if I had said > > > > > > > yes......my > > > > > > > life would have > > > > > > > > > > > > > > turned out better. I would be allowed to be closer. Now it's easy > > > > > > > to see > > > > > > > that isn't always the case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It helps to know that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Judith probably has done more for the other ladies who went > > > > > > > through similar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > experiences than any one else. Remember also that she left the > > > > > > > Movement and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > went off on her own path. She has had the freedom to speak the > > > > > > > truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My psychology is better now for what she has written. Truth, > > > > > > > sweet truth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > helps. And Judith sees the good that M has done for the world. > > > > > > > It is the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > technique of meditation that counts. Does THAT work? That is > > > > > > > what he > > > > > > > > > > > > > > marketed to the world and hopefully today the world is a better > > > > > > > place--not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > perfect, just a little better. No one likes everything about > > > > > > > something or > > > > > > > someone; > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that is the nature of the relative--it's not perfect. I guess we > > > > > > > forget > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that in our quest for absolute anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But shouldn't we focus on what does work, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > what is good? That's what Scriptures keep telling us to do and > > > > > > > there must > > > > > > > be a reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That instruction is not guru-based; it is evolutionary based. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What FFLfers are now doing is not helping us heal. Rather the > > > > > > > fear is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > returning, the sense of persecution is coming back to life. If > > > > > > > these people > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ever find out......runs through my mind constantly. This probably > > > > > > > will be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the closest I will ever come to going really public. This tiny > > > > > > > missive that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hardly says anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess I am asking FFlfers to please, please, please, give us > > > > > > > ladies a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > chance to heal. It may be lies to you, it may be fantasy to you, > > > > > > > but it's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not to those of us who went through it. Keep that in mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If anything, have compassion in your hearts and give us the space > > > > > > > we so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > desperately need to heal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thank you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yours Truly > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
