Remember the Tea Party guy who famously yelled at his congressman, "Keep your government hands off my Medicare"?
That's Barry: "Keep your determinist hands off my free will!" Xeno, excellent job of laying things out. I don't think it'll do any more good than explaining to the Tea Partier that Medicare has always been in the hands of the government, but it was worth a shot. Very well done. That's 50 and out for me. --- In [email protected], "Xenophaneros Anartaxius" <anartaxius@...> wrote: > > > This is really valuable information to know, that you (turquoiseb) speak > for the whole universe ('I think this is a pretty dismal view of the > universe and indicates that the universe ... doesn't really think very > much of them [the no-free-will adherents]'). Someone pass the crown! I > certainly do not know enough to speak for all of existence. > > The idea of an enlightened cuckoo clock is not all that bad. A similar > idea (unfortunately for those Hindu believers) is found in the > Bhagavad-Gita: 'Ishvara, situated in the heart of all beings, Arjuna, > causes these beings to move, (as if) being placed on a machine, by > virtue of maya.' > > In religious terminology, this is called the will of God. However > religions that use this model of description do have a problem when they > make this God omniscient. This logically eliminates free will on the > individual level. God, in this model, exists - why or how we do not > know, but this God and will are there, so we can say that it is free, it > is a given. So we have will, and the will is free. Everything follows > along as if on a machine, a giant cuckoo clock. Enlightenment is giving > up the idea that this free will operates on the individual level of sub > units of the whole. One then flows in stream of life. What one gives up > is the idea that in one's experience, there is an individual (a person) > that is separate from whatever is left over outside the person. > Everything is actually connected in some way, which seems pretty > obvious, but somehow for most people, is not obvious especially when the > idea of individual personhood is involved. > > Kurt Vonnegut made fun of this idea in one of his novels: by giving Adam > free will, God could not predict what Adam would do, and thus God was > always surprised, as Adam, having free will on the individual level, > would always do something that in principle, could not be predicted. To > give an individual free will, God must surrender omniscience, and that > of course makes God not such hot stuff. > > The Buddha's doctrine of no-self also follows along the lines that the > universe is a cuckoo clock. The idea one is an individual soul in this > accounting is a mistake. Maybe there are some Buddhists who believe in > free will, but the doctrine of no-self means there is no one to have > free will. The universe as a whole is what is free, and is responsible > for the machinations of the world. This is what science investigates in > the attempt to discover universal laws. One of the logical problems in > dealing with the relation of the whole to the parts is logic illuminates > the relationship of the parts, it sets the part in their 'true' > relationship with the whole. But logic itself is a subset of the whole > representing the balance of those relationships, so it can never work to > explain the entire value of existence. > > Your conclusions about enlightenment resulting in coming to the view > that one is an automaton certainly follows, but even if that is in fact > true, why is that some how sad? The universe remains the same, > enlightenment does not change the universe. > > This does not lessen having a human body in our vicinity, that seems to > be the focus of our experience, it just widens the perspective through > which we understand what is happening. All the fun and sorrow of life is > in forgetting that it is all just a cuckoo clock. One does not become a > soggy pile of mindless oatmeal porridge with enlightenment, blissfully > unaware of all the crap that goes on in this universe. One becomes fully > engaged in a mystery. From time to time, we try to solve part of the > mystery. But we will never solve the whole mystery. This gives you, me, > and others here the license to continue to investigate this here in > writing, or draw battle lines, whatever suits us for the moment, even if > what suits us is out of our hands; we can always pretend we are the > doer. For many things in life this is a useful way to look at our > experience. > > You have written some very entertaining things on this forum, but I > think you may not always be thinking through all your arguments. I > particularly enjoyed your piece on manufactured needs. Enlightenment is > a manufactured need. Most people in this world do not give a thought to > the idea because they either do not know the term, or just don't care. > But if the idea resonates, and it hooks you, then the need seems to be > real, only to find out, if the quest goes the distance, that it was in > fact, just made up. Being a seeker is an idiot's quest, but one does not > realize one is the idiot until the path falls out from under the feet. > > The idea that we have free will is made up, and it has a particular > application. The idea that we are automatons is similarly made up, and > it has a particular application. If you are sitting watching a beautiful > sunset, maybe neither idea will come to mind, just the sitting and > watching, no mind, just pure experience. By the way, enlightenment is > soul suicide. > > --- In [email protected], turquoiseb <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > Sometimes I really love the view that non-believers in > > Free Will have of the universe they live in and what > > that implies about what the universe thinks of them. > > > > They postulate essentially an enormous cuckoo clock, > > in which all sentient beings are just automatons doing > > what they've been programmed to do, endlessly. In their > > view of the universe, many of these automatons think > > that they're making their own decisions, but they aren't > > really. That's just an illusion. In reality, they're > > just acting out actions designed by something or someone > > else, whatever or whoever wound up the clock. > > > > What is most fascinating is that many of the automatons > > who believe in this Cuckoo Clock Universe present them- > > selves as if they were "spiritual seekers," that is, as > > if there were something that was in their power to *do* > > that would facilitate or speed up their evolution towards > > the goal of "enlightenment" they aspire to. > > > > What I don't understand is why, if they are incapable > > of "doing" anything, they believe that there is anything > > they can do to facilitate their enlightenment. Even more > > puzzling is their reverence for spiritual teachers who > > they feel are "enlightened." According to their view > > of the universe, none of these "enlightened" beings can > > do diddleysquat, either. They are just as much automatons > > as the people who revere and follow them. And if the > > whole thing is one big deterministic cuckoo clock, then > > there was nothing the "enlightened" could *ever* have > > done for them. > > > > Me, I think this is a pretty dismal view of the universe, > > one that indicates that the universe (which many of these > > supposed "spiritual seekers" believe is sentient) doesn't > > really think very much of them. It doesn't allow them > > any freedom or autonomy, and allows them no say in their > > own lives. Everything is programmed, and there is nothing > > they can ever do that will affect anything else, *includ- > > ing* their own enlightenment. And if they ever realize > > this "enlightenment" they seek, the only thing that's > > happened for them is that they supposedly realize that > > they're automatons. > > > > Big whoop. I'm much more comfortable with a more Buddhist > > view of the universe in which everyone has Free Will and > > thus can affect not only their own lives but the lives > > of others. Teachers in such a universe would actually be > > accomplishing something, not just speaking as automatons > > to other automatons. > > > > But if that's the way they want to see the universe they > > live in, so be it. At least now I understand why so many > > of them seem so chronically unhappy and why so many of > > them actually long for annihilation. If I thought I lived > > inside an enormous cuckoo clock and that nothing I had > > ever done or will ever do mattered, I'd probably hope > > for "soul suicide" myself. :-) > > >
